Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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29-01-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(28-01-2016 03:09 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Where have you refuted any of the syllogisms that I have presented?

Explain to me what the hell does "primacy of existence" means and I will be more than happy to oblige.
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29-01-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(29-01-2016 10:15 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 03:09 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Where have you refuted any of the syllogisms that I have presented?

Explain to me what the hell does "primacy of existence" means and I will be more than happy to oblige.

I'll copy and paste what I wrote in post 447 to you. I realize this is a bare bones explanation so if there is anything you still don't understand, I'll be happy to help you. But, it really isn't a difficult principle to grasp, just a little different because it deals with fundamental principles which most people and philosophers take for granted.

"It's not Japanese, it's actually philosophy 101. If you don't understand it then you don't understand your own worldview's most fundamental principles. I've never encountered a theist who did. It's not surprising that you don't because the Bible has absolutely nothing to say on this most fundamental and crucial issue.

When we look out at the world, the first thing we are aware of is that there are things that exist. In the act of grasping this fact, we grasp that we are conscious. Something exists and we know it. We also grasp the fact that the things that exist are what they are and not something else. The things we perceive have their own specific identity. These three concepts stated in the form of universal principles are the axioms: existence exists, consciousness is consciousness of some thing, and to exist is to posses a specific identity, i.e., A is A. These three principles taken together entail a fourth recognition, that existence exists independently of conscious activity such as wishing, wanting, liking, fearing, demanding, praying, dreaming, feeling etc. A is A regardless of whether we like it or not. There is a distinction between the perceiving subject and the things is is aware of. There is a relationship between the two and it is contextually fixed. Consciousness is the faculty which perceives existence, not the faculty that creates it. This is known as the primacy of existence principle. validation of these truths is simply a matter of sense perception. These truths are self evident. These most fundamental of all our recognitions have profound implications for how we gain and validate knowledge. For instance, if we want to gain knowledge of the world we must look outward at the world, not inward to the contents of our imagination. What implications do these principles have on the concept "truth". Well right away we realize that for a proposition to be true, it must not violate any of these principles. What would truth mean in a universe that conforms itself to conscious wishes? Truth would be whatever some conscious mind decided it would be. Truth then rests conceptually on the primacy of existence principle. What would be the implications for logic if existence conformed to conscious activity. Well obviously, there goes the law of identity. A would no longer be A but A would be whatever some conscious subject wanted it to be. There goes the law of non contradiction and logic right out the window.

This is the fatal flaw in Theism, that it affirms the primacy of consciousness metaphysics, essentially that "wishing makes it so". This is the flaw that my argument made explicit. Any argument that seeks to prove that the god of theism exists, in the content of the conclusion would negate the laws of logic. It would be self refuting. It would be an instance of using logic to negate logic. It would commit the fallacy of the stolen concept by using logic to prove something which violates the primacy of existence, a concept at the genetic root of the concept logic. This means that any argument which seeks to establish the existence of the god of theism commits this fallacy. Every single one. Kalam. Commits the fallacy of the stolen concept and refutes itself. Ontological argument? Commits the fallacy of the stolen concept and refutes itself. Argument from miracles. Commits the fallacy of the stolen concept and refutes itself.

Here's the proof that truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence:

1. If truth is the identification of reality based on facts which obtain independently of anyone's conscious activity such as wishing, wanting, praying, commanding, preferring, feeling, hoping, fearing, etc., then truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence metaphysics.

2. Truth is the identification of reality based on facts which obtain independently of anyone's conscious activity such as wishing, wanting, praying, commanding, preferring, feeling, hoping, fearing, etc.

Therefor truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence metaphysics.



This, in the shortest possible form I can present it, is the issue of metaphysical primacy."

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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29-01-2016, 10:26 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(28-01-2016 03:15 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Here, right here, you are caught red handed using the primacy of existence principle. So the Bible is true whether Chas likes it or not huh?

No, not at all, scots. When I make those absolute statements, I am making the statements based on background information. So when I said "....you don't like the idea of a Supreme Being telling you what you should do and how you should it"...

I am making that statement based upon background information I have for Christian theism, so the statement reflects the information.

So yeah, based on the arguments for Christian theism, I have reasons to believe that there is a Supreme Being who has certain requirements for us...and we know of these requirements based on the Bible, yes.

(28-01-2016 03:15 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  But according to your worldview, reality conforms to conscious wishes. It affirms this explicitly. So you have thrown your own worldview under the bus. This is too much fun to be legal!

More unjustified pats on the back, eh scots? Laugh out load
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29-01-2016, 10:38 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(29-01-2016 09:57 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 04:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, there is absolutely no evidence that it is true. None, nada, zip. Drinking Beverage

Well, there is evidence to me. And besides, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Yeah but then what the hell is the reason to think it? If there was never evidence, how would you know it?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-01-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(29-01-2016 10:12 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(29-01-2016 12:27 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I mean the bible.

Scripture, please?

Impossible to determine. When Timothy (supposedly) said "All scripture is god breathed" etc ..." there was no canon established at that time. "Scripture" therefore can be anything that is written. (According to the Bible).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-01-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(29-01-2016 10:15 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 03:09 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Where have you refuted any of the syllogisms that I have presented?

Explain to me what the hell does "primacy of existence" means and I will be more than happy to oblige.

But YOU keep claiming YOU are intellectually superior here.
How is it you don't know the most common concepts in Philosophy ?
Are you a little fibber, CoTW ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-01-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(29-01-2016 10:12 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Scripture, please?


http://hypertextbook.com/eworld/geocentric.shtml

I will take it a step further.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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29-01-2016, 10:49 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(28-01-2016 04:14 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'm not seeing what he did that made him trustworthy of a claim that he is the only way to god. What should make one think that is something for trusting a random guy.

Jesus' Resurrection was confirmation that he was who he claimed to be, Clyde.
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29-01-2016, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2016 02:02 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(29-01-2016 10:26 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 03:15 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Here, right here, you are caught red handed using the primacy of existence principle. So the Bible is true whether Chas likes it or not huh?

No, not at all, scots. When I make those absolute statements, I am making the statements based on background information. So when I said "....you don't like the idea of a Supreme Being telling you what you should do and how you should it"...

I am making that statement based upon background information I have for Christian theism, so the statement reflects the information.

So yeah, based on the arguments for Christian theism, I have reasons to believe that there is a Supreme Being who has certain requirements for us...and we know of these requirements based on the Bible, yes.

That's fine, but irrelevant. I was simply pointing out that you were using a principle in making your statement which your worldview explicitly rejects. I told you that you could not be consistent with your worldviews endorsement of the primacy of consciousness and you have given us a prime example. You and every other theist alternate between the POE and the POC. You all want to have your cake and eat it too. I don't think you do this intentionally. But you can't help doing it because you don't even know that your worldview is premised exclusively on the POC. Every time you say something like "God exists even though you don't believe in him" you are affirming the primacy of existence but in the content of your God belief you affirm the primacy of consciousness. You are saying existence exists independently of consciousness and there also exists this consciousness that existence depends on. It's a total contradiction.

I can be consistent with my worldview, which is premised exclusively on the primacy of existence. I don't contradict myself at every turn. That's because my worldview is 100% reality based. My worldview recognizes that there is a fundamental distinction between what is real and what is imaginary.
(29-01-2016 10:26 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(28-01-2016 03:15 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  But according to your worldview, reality conforms to conscious wishes. It affirms this explicitly. So you have thrown your own worldview under the bus. This is too much fun to be legal!

More unjustified pats on the back, eh scots? Laugh out load

No, not unjustified. Here's the proof.

1. If theism affirms a creator which created everything in existence distinct from itself by an act of conscious will, maintains said creation by an act of conscious will and can alter said creation by an act of conscious will, then theism assumes the primacy of consciousness metaphysics.

2. Theism affirms a creator which created everything in existence distinct from itself by an act of conscious will, maintains said creation by an act of conscious will and can alter said creation by an act of conscious will.

Therefore theism assumes the primacy of consciousness metaphysics.

There's the proof. Good luck refuting it without throwing your worldview under the bus. I actually witnessed an apologist refuse to say that his God created the universe in order to try refute this argument. I don't know how one could continue to be an apologist after doing that but I guess his capacity for compartmentalization is mighty.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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29-01-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
He never claimed anything. Claims were made about him.
For the Jews, the "heavenly host" contained all sorts of "sons of god", and "divine beings". He never claimed divinity. If someone called him a "son of god" it was not unique. CoTW needs to take a class in scripture, right after that Logic class).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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