Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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31-01-2016, 08:29 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(31-01-2016 03:28 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Actually jesus was never god in the first place. I mean so far we are closer to god then him, I mean we exist.

I dunno, I think Jesus is closer to god than I am. I exist, neither Jesus or god can claim that.
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31-01-2016, 10:14 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2016 10:19 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(31-01-2016 08:29 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(31-01-2016 08:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes. Please dumb it down to his level.
"Simultaneously primary". Facepalm
Dude never heard of an oxymoron.

I'm doing my best. Of course if he wants to remain consistent with Christianity's fundamental premise, he'll have to answer that yes "wishing does make it so". If he answers no, he's denying his own philosophy's most fundamental principle. Either way he is screwed. I'm glad these aren't my problems any more. I was in his place 10 years ago.

I used different words to make this argument when I pushed him on it a few weeks ago. He told me his "god couldn't (or *had* to) do something. I asked him to explain where the Reality came from his god existed *in*. He told me I was arrogant and said he would have nothing to do with me .. sound familiar ? Heh heh. But you can special plead this away. I expect that will happen.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-01-2016, 10:27 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(31-01-2016 10:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-01-2016 08:29 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm doing my best. Of course if he wants to remain consistent with Christianity's fundamental premise, he'll have to answer that yes "wishing does make it so". If he answers no, he's denying his own philosophy's most fundamental principle. Either way he is screwed. I'm glad these aren't my problems any more. I was in his place 10 years ago.

I used different words to make this argument when I pushed him on it a few weeks ago. He told me his "god couldn't (or *had* to) do something. I asked him to explain where the Reality came from his god existed *in*. He told me I was arrogant and said he would have nothing to do with me .. sound familiar ? Heh heh. But you can special plead this away. I expect that will happen.

What thread was that in? I'd like to read it. Sometimes I go for several days without much free time so I tend to miss a lot.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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31-01-2016, 10:52 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(31-01-2016 10:27 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(31-01-2016 10:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I used different words to make this argument when I pushed him on it a few weeks ago. He told me his "god couldn't (or *had* to) do something. I asked him to explain where the Reality came from his god existed *in*. He told me I was arrogant and said he would have nothing to do with me .. sound familiar ? Heh heh. But you can special plead this away. I expect that will happen.

What thread was that in? I'd like to read it. Sometimes I go for several days without much free time so I tend to miss a lot.

It started here : http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid892591

Quote:Whatever realm that God existed in before the creation of the natural world would have to be as necessary as God himself.

Laugh out load

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-02-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(31-01-2016 08:13 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Do the facts of reality depend on consciousness for their existence or do facts obtain independently of consciousness? In essence, does "wishing make it so" or "does wishing not make it so"?

Wishing it does NOT make it so. The facts of reality does NOT depend on consciousness for their existence.

Ok, and?? I am still waiting on the "this proves that God doesn't exist" part. Haven't seen that part as of yet.
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01-02-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(30-01-2016 12:53 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(30-01-2016 12:08 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Laugh out load
He who laughs last ....
It says "was raised" .... it does not say "raised himself" ... you're still interpreting.
"Was raised" is passive perfect (past) tense. (I know this is pretty complicated for you, but "passive" means it was done to him, not he did it. So ... now, you better sign up for :
1. Logic
2. Philosophy
3. English

You're gonna be busy.
Rolleyes

I did say John 2:18-22, right?? I thought I did. So instead of relying on you to read the shit yourself and dealing with your reading comprehension flaws, how about I just post it on here.

18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body.

22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.


(30-01-2016 12:08 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Oh,
4. Bible Studies.
1 Peter 1:3
"All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation,

The raising of Jesus from the dead was a joint operation at which all person's of the Trinity played a part.

As Bucky Ball has already pointed out, Jesus's reported statement only makes a prediction about the temple. It is the author of the book (we can call him "John", I guess) who equates the temple to Jesus's body. Jesus himself is never reported as saying that.

Not to mention that we don't really know what Jesus himself said, because he left no writings. Everything in the "Gospel according to John" is hearsay, written many years later, and probably not by an eyewitness. So there's that.

Also note that the "Jesus" of John's gospel speaks very differently than the Jesus of the other 3 gospels. You might almost say that he is a completely different character.
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01-02-2016, 10:27 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 10:03 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(31-01-2016 08:13 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Do the facts of reality depend on consciousness for their existence or do facts obtain independently of consciousness? In essence, does "wishing make it so" or "does wishing not make it so"?

Wishing it does NOT make it so. The facts of reality does NOT depend on consciousness for their existence.

Ok, and?? I am still waiting on the "this proves that God doesn't exist" part. Haven't seen that part as of yet.

Where does the Bible affirm this. Book, chapter and verse please. And if you are able to find a verse that does, this could only represent an internal contradiction. According to the Bible, everything is the way it is because God wanted it that way. It has a plan and its will shall be done. You yourself said that if your God wished to manifest itself as a unicorn, it could do this. Also the Bible tells us that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed, we can say to the mountain move and it will move, we can walk on liquid water, we can heal the sick and the lame, raise the dead and anything will be possible to us. So when you say that wishing doesn't make it so, you are throwing your Bible's teachings under the bus.

It's not that this proves that God doesn't exist. There's no onus to prove that the non-existent doesn't exist. What it proves is that the claims of theism can not be true. Just as I said, you can not hold consistently to Christianity'y founding principles. You hold to two contradictory metaphysics. You alternate between the POE and the POC as it suits you. You hold that existence exists independently of consciousness and there also exist a consciousness on which existence depends. This is self contradictory. It does not stand to reason. That's why it takes faith to believe in it. You know that reality does not conform to conscious intentions, but you believe in theism despite this fact. That's the definition of irrationality. Me, I'll stick with Objactivism and reality.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-02-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(31-01-2016 10:52 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-01-2016 10:27 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  What thread was that in? I'd like to read it. Sometimes I go for several days without much free time so I tend to miss a lot.

It started here : http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid892591

Quote:Whatever realm that God existed in before the creation of the natural world would have to be as necessary as God himself.

Laugh out load

It seems that this line of reasoning would apply to us as well. Because we exist then the realm we exist in is necessary. To say that the universe is contingent is arbitrary, in order to make a God necessary.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-02-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Where does the Bible affirm this. Book, chapter and verse please. And if you are able to find a verse that does, this could only represent an internal contradiction. According to the Bible, everything is the way it is because God wanted it that way. It has a plan and its will shall be done. You yourself said that if your God wished to manifest itself as a unicorn, it could do this. Also the Bible tells us that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed, we can say to the mountain move and it will move, we can walk on liquid water, we can heal the sick and the lame, raise the dead and anything will be possible to us. So when you say that wishing doesn't make it so, you are throwing your Bible's teachings under the bus.

Obviously, when I said wishing doesn't make it so, I was talking about wishes that are beyond the scope of human ability to make happen. I can wish that in a few seconds I will grow wings and begin to fly, but obviously, a few seconds has passed and I don't have wings...so there are things that cannot be "wished" into reality. However, I wish to take a drink of my gatorade beside, and that is a wish that is within my ability.

(01-02-2016 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It's not that this proves that God doesn't exist. There's no onus to prove that the non-existent doesn't exist.

The latter sentence above is question begging. The onus is on you to prove that God doesn't exist before you conclude God doesn't exist in the sentence.

(01-02-2016 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  What it proves is that the claims of theism can not be true.

No it doesn't. If it does, then provide the independent evidence against any of the theistic arguments that I am advocating for...

Kalam
Ontological
Consciousness
Resurrection
Origins of life
Origins of language

(01-02-2016 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Just as I said, you can not hold consistently to Christianity'y founding principles. You hold to two contradictory metaphysics. You alternate between the POE and the POC as it suits you. You hold that existence exists independently of consciousness and there also exist a consciousness on which existence depends.

Actually, I hold that physical existence depends on the will and consciousness of a necessarily existence and necessarily conscious entity.

When I said the "facts of reality is independent of consciousness", my point was even if there was absolutely NOTHING that existed, this "nothingness" would be reality, and it would be reality regardless of whether there are minds to conceive it.

(01-02-2016 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  This is self contradictory. It does not stand to reason. That's why it takes faith to believe in it. You know that reality does not conform to conscious intentions, but you believe in theism despite this fact. That's the definition of irrationality. Me, I'll stick with Objactivism and reality.

Here is the bottomline; existence is necessary. But physical existence is contingent.

Or another way of putting it; it is not POSSIBLE for physical existence to be necessary.

And if it is impossible for physical existence to be necessary, then there must be another "kind/type" of existence that exist which IS necessary.

No matter how you put it, each statement corroborates the other. They are supplementary. There is no escaping these implications.
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01-02-2016, 01:43 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 11:58 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  The latter sentence above is question begging. The onus is on you to prove that God doesn't exist before you conclude God doesn't exist in the sentence.

That is not an example of "begging the question". There is no question "begged" there. No one can prove a negative, (which he would know if he ever took 1 Logic class). No one has to go around proving the non-existence of things that are undefined, incoherent, and have no evidence to support them. No one can "prove" a god, or faith would be unnecessary. COTW knows SO LITTLE of his own religion, he doesn't even know the fundamentals of theism.

(01-02-2016 11:58 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  No it doesn't. If it does, then provide the independent evidence against any of the theistic arguments that I am advocating for...

Kalam
Ontological
Consciousness
Resurrection
Origins of life
Origins of language

You have provided not a shred of evidence FOR any of them.

(01-02-2016 11:58 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Actually, I hold that physical existence depends on the will and consciousness of a necessarily existence and necessarily conscious entity.

So what ? Some psychotics think there are pink elephants. You have no evidence for your delusions.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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