Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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01-02-2016, 02:07 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 11:58 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(01-02-2016 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Where does the Bible affirm this. Book, chapter and verse please. And if you are able to find a verse that does, this could only represent an internal contradiction. According to the Bible, everything is the way it is because God wanted it that way. It has a plan and its will shall be done. You yourself said that if your God wished to manifest itself as a unicorn, it could do this. Also the Bible tells us that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed, we can say to the mountain move and it will move, we can walk on liquid water, we can heal the sick and the lame, raise the dead and anything will be possible to us. So when you say that wishing doesn't make it so, you are throwing your Bible's teachings under the bus.

Obviously, when I said wishing doesn't make it so, I was talking about wishes that are beyond the scope of human ability to make happen. I can wish that in a few seconds I will grow wings and begin to fly, but obviously, a few seconds has passed and I don't have wings...so there are things that cannot be "wished" into reality. However, I wish to take a drink of my gatorade beside, and that is a wish that is within my ability.


Do you see what you just did there? That is very sneaky, but this is not my first jar of pickles. You switched categories. The first action, wishing for wings, is clearly a type of conscious action while reaching over and taking a drink of gatoraid is clearly a physical action. Did you really think you could get away with this? You insult our intelligence.

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Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-02-2016, 02:12 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 11:58 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(01-02-2016 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It's not that this proves that God doesn't exist. There's no onus to prove that the non-existent doesn't exist.

The latter sentence above is question begging. The onus is on you to prove that God doesn't exist before you conclude God doesn't exist in the sentence.


Bucky Ball has put this one to rest quite nicely, but I'll just add that I was not making and argument, just pointing out a law of logic, so no, no question begging going on. In fact you are the one begging the question because you assume that your God exists in asking me to prove that it doesn't.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-02-2016, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2016 02:26 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 11:58 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(01-02-2016 10:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  What it proves is that the claims of theism can not be true.

No it doesn't. If it does, then provide the independent evidence against any of the theistic arguments that I am advocating for...

Kalam
Ontological
Consciousness
Resurrection
Origins of life
Origins of language

Pointing to counter evidence is not the only way to refute an argument. One can also point out errors in logic. That is precisely what I've done in pointing out that all of those arguments, indeed all arguments that seek to prove the existence of creator gods, commit the fallacy of the stolen concept. So those arguments have all been dealt with already. Besides, "if it (my argument) does" prove that the claims of theism can't be true (and it does) then why would I need to point to additional evidence? Either an argument proves its conclusion or it doesn't, and the 3 arguments I presented, taken together, are both valid and sound, so yes they do prove that theism can not be true.


I'll get to the rest of your points later as I have to get back to work.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-02-2016, 02:54 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 02:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Do you see what you just did there? That is very sneaky, but this is not my first jar of pickles. You switched categories. The first action, wishing for wings, is clearly a type of conscious action while reaching over and taking a drink of gatoraid is clearly a physical action. Did you really think you could get away with this? You insult our intelligence.

Actually I was making a distinction between what I was TALKING about when I implied "wishing doesn't make it so" and what YOU thought I meant when I said "wishing doesn't make it so".
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01-02-2016, 03:06 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 02:12 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Bucky Ball has put this one to rest quite nicely, but I'll just add that I was not making and argument, just pointing out a law of logic, so no, no question begging going on. In fact you are the one begging the question because you assume that your God exists in asking me to prove that it doesn't.

I am concluding God exist based on the background evidence I have FOR God's existence, and I asked you to use your "primacy of existence" to prove otherwise. You've already admitted that you can't do this, so therefore, there is no point in bringing it up.

My arguments prove beyond any reasonable doubt that a transcendent First Cause is necessary. Now, if the POE proves theism false, then my arguments for a First Cause should therefore falter. But do they? No, they don't.

Not only that, but let's face it...I am one of the biggest fans/supports of WLC there is...I've seen practically all of his debates and many other atheism/theism debates...and I've never once seen the atheist side use the POE in their arguments. Never. Ever.

Hmmm Consider
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01-02-2016, 03:38 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Pointing to counter evidence is not the only way to refute an argument. One can also point out errors in logic. That is precisely what I've done in pointing out that all of those arguments, indeed all arguments that seek to prove the existence of creator gods, commit the fallacy of the stolen concept. So those arguments have all been dealt with already.

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause

2. The universe began to exist

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause

or

1. Everything that exists has a reason for its existence, either by way of an external cause, or due to the necessity of its own nature.

2. The existence of the universe cannot be due to the necessity of its own nature.

3. Therefore, the existence of the universe is by way of an external cause.

These are sound/valid syllogisms, and if your POE makes theism falter, then please tell me which premises in false in either of the above argument.

You can't. So you won't. You won't, because you can't.

(01-02-2016 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Besides, "if it (my argument) does" prove that the claims of theism can't be true (and it does) then why would I need to point to additional evidence?

That's a big "if".

(01-02-2016 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Either an argument proves its conclusion or it doesn't, and the 3 arguments I presented, taken together, are both valid and sound, so yes they do prove that theism can not be true.

Then the Kalam would be false. But it isn't.
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01-02-2016, 04:54 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2016 05:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 03:06 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  My arguments prove beyond any reasonable doubt that a transcendent First Cause is necessary.

You wish. No they don't. Not in the slightest. They don't even BEGIN to.
Arguments don't prove anything, least of all a god.
There are many flawless logical systems, that are without error, but do not obtain in reality. Besides arguments, you need evidence. You have none. Not any. Nada. Zip.
Your entire edifice of apologist bullshit is built on this fallacy, the fallacy of composition, and the fallacy of the false analogy. All your examples rest on things observed ONLY in this universe, on the macro level.
Anything about gods and creations, until proven to apply, cannot be applied to anything OTHER than INSIDE this universe.

Secondly, you have already admitted your deity is NOT the "first cause" of anything, and you were totally unable to even deal with the question, when you said "Whatever realm that God existed in before the creation of the natural world would have to be as necessary as God himself." That "realm" was not god himself, and as well as your cause, as well as the principle in Reality of 'causality' remain unexplained by your simple nonsense. So you just added some more "necessary" bullshit. Who "caused" the realm" your god exists in, of necessity. Who created the system that gives rise to "necessary" beings and realms. Who caused Reality ? If spacetime began when this universe did, to say "before" anything, is meaningless. You make this street level, common as dirt error, common theist apologists make all the time.

Face it. You got nothing. You got a lot more "s'plainin" to do.

Lastly, there are no proofs for the gods. If there were, faith would be unnecessary.
But thanks for admitting to us, that you have no faith, nor need for any.
Your Jesus said in the Gospel of John 20:29 "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
He never said anything at all about making arguments or proofs as support.
He was talking about FAITH. You are not a real follower of Jesus, then, I see.

Big Grin

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01-02-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 03:06 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  ...I am one of the biggest fans/supports of WLC there is...

That explains a lot.
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01-02-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 03:38 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(01-02-2016 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Pointing to counter evidence is not the only way to refute an argument. One can also point out errors in logic. That is precisely what I've done in pointing out that all of those arguments, indeed all arguments that seek to prove the existence of creator gods, commit the fallacy of the stolen concept. So those arguments have all been dealt with already.

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause

2. The universe began to exist

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause

or

1. Everything that exists has a reason for its existence, either by way of an external cause, or due to the necessity of its own nature.

2. The existence of the universe cannot be due to the necessity of its own nature.

3. Therefore, the existence of the universe is by way of an external cause.

These are sound/valid syllogisms, and if your POE makes theism falter, then please tell me which premises in false in either of the above argument.

You can't. So you won't. You won't, because you can't.

(01-02-2016 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Besides, "if it (my argument) does" prove that the claims of theism can't be true (and it does) then why would I need to point to additional evidence?

That's a big "if".

(01-02-2016 02:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Either an argument proves its conclusion or it doesn't, and the 3 arguments I presented, taken together, are both valid and sound, so yes they do prove that theism can not be true.

Then the Kalam would be false. But it isn't.

Each is based on an unproved assertion. They are not proofs of anything.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-02-2016 03:38 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause

You forgot "in this universe". You have a sample of one, and have no knowledge of anything else. If this universe "began", (and you don't know that, as cosmologists don't agree on what caused the Big Bang), there was no "outside" or "before" it. Both require "spacetime" for them to have any meaning. Also an omnipotent god could have created "universe makers". It's a (bad) illogical argument for a "proximate" (nearest) cause, not "ultimate cause". You still didn't tell us who caused 'causality', or how that makes sense. Virtual particles have no cause. Your bullshit has just been disproven.

(01-02-2016 03:38 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  2. The universe began to exist

You don't know that. No one does.

(01-02-2016 03:38 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  3. Therefore, the universe has a cause

The cause does not have to be a god. Fallacy of "fallacy of false choice, fallacy of false alternatives, black-and-white thinking, the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, bifurcation, excluded middle, no middle ground fallacy".

Kalam is a pile of shit.

COTW, stop with this childish crap. No one is going to change their mind on the basis of this nonsense.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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