Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
02-10-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-10-2015 01:42 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  So to be clear, you neither perceive the supernatural nor do you infer its existence from what you can perceive, but rather you accept its existence on faith in what the Bible says?

No, I believe that the classification of parts of creation as natural and others as supernatural is a human idea. God made one creation. We are able to perceive parts of it with our senses and not others.

Quote:If the universe is too complicated to have come into existence without an intelligent designer, wouldn't God also be too complex to have come into existence without an intelligent designer? And wouldn't that intelligent designer be too complex to come into existence without an intelligent designer?

God is eternal and so never came into existence.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2015, 11:14 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(02-10-2015 10:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Alla's Mormon?

Yeah, the Alla LDS sect. Angel

living word
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(25-02-2015 07:30 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I was just wondering. Theists tell me that their god created everything in existence from a supernatural realm outside of existence. Leaving aside the self contradictory notion of something existing outside of existence, who created the supernatural realm?

It's a very thin veneer applied to the Cosmological Argument to cover up the special pleading.

Obviously, as soon as someone who makes this argument asserts that God was the first cause, the next question out of anyone's mouth who is honest is "what caused God?". If they say "nothing", then they have just violated the same universal rule the used to assert God, so they would be resorting to special pleading to justify the hypocrisy. If they they list some cause, then they just kicked the can back a step, and you can ask what caused that cause.

So, to break out of this conundrum, they assert that God exists outside of time, which means he has no cause, as we understand it. Of course, playing this fast and loose with things raises several other questions:
  • If you believe something can exist without being caused, how do you know the universe needs to be caused?
  • If you believe that the universe was created by something "outside of time", how do you know that thing is intelligent?
  • If God existed outside of time before creating everything, what was he doing for infinity years by himself? Sure, you can say he's "outside of time" and that there wasn't infinite time before the creation, but at that point, everything just becomes incoherent. How could he have acted to create everything if there is no time or causality? Its self-defeating.

That's closer to what I hear, that God exists outside of space and time, which is different than an assertion that he lives in a supernatural realm. He may have also created supernatural realms (Heaven for Angels and Christians and Hell for demons and people who talk in the theater), but those places can't exist outside of time because people go there after they die, and if there is no time then "after" isn't a thing.

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2015, 11:51 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(02-10-2015 10:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Alla's Mormon?

I am member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(02-10-2015 11:51 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-10-2015 10:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Alla's Mormon?

I am member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.

Yeah...a Mormon.Facepalm

[Image: lds%20equals%20mormon_zpsy83im7up.png]

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2015, 12:41 PM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2015 12:55 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(02-10-2015 11:10 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 01:42 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  So to be clear, you neither perceive the supernatural nor do you infer its existence from what you can perceive, but rather you accept its existence on faith in what the Bible says?

No, I believe that the classification of parts of creation as natural and others as supernatural is a human idea. God made one creation. We are able to perceive parts of it with our senses and not others.

Quote:If the universe is too complicated to have come into existence without an intelligent designer, wouldn't God also be too complex to have come into existence without an intelligent designer? And wouldn't that intelligent designer be too complex to come into existence without an intelligent designer?

God is eternal and so never came into existence.

So the concept supernatural is invalid then. There is only nature. I agree.

How do you know that the universe, defined as the sum total of what exists, is not eternal?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes true scotsman's post
02-10-2015, 02:25 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(02-10-2015 11:51 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-10-2015 10:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Alla's Mormon?

I am member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.
The church's website along with official press releases, never capitalize the entire name of Jesus Christ. Shouting his name won't help him to materialise any quicker.

Couldn't you have just said: "Yes I'm a Mormon."? Instead, you prefer a bit more complication in your responses like:

"My third language is my first language. I'm a scientist of reverse engineering, with forward thrust capability. My contributions include the unique ability to reduce the most patient to face palming. My name is Arm Leg Leg Arm, and I'm a Mormon!"
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Cosmic Discourse's post
02-10-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(02-10-2015 11:10 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 01:42 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  So to be clear, you neither perceive the supernatural nor do you infer its existence from what you can perceive, but rather you accept its existence on faith in what the Bible says?

No, I believe that the classification of parts of creation as natural and others as supernatural is a human idea. God made one creation. We are able to perceive parts of it with our senses and not others.

Quote:If the universe is too complicated to have come into existence without an intelligent designer, wouldn't God also be too complex to have come into existence without an intelligent designer? And wouldn't that intelligent designer be too complex to come into existence without an intelligent designer?

God is eternal and so never came into existence.

Anything that did not come into existence doesn't exist, dear. I see you are turning into an atheist.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-10-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(02-10-2015 11:51 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-10-2015 10:04 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Alla's Mormon?

I am member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.

Dodgy

...so you're Mormon.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kingschosen's post
03-10-2015, 09:07 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 09:12 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(02-10-2015 11:15 AM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 07:30 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It's a very thin veneer applied to the Cosmological Argument to cover up the special pleading.

Obviously, as soon as someone who makes this argument asserts that God was the first cause, the next question out of anyone's mouth who is honest is "what caused God?". If they say "nothing", then they have just violated the same universal rule the used to assert God, so they would be resorting to special pleading to justify the hypocrisy. If they they list some cause, then they just kicked the can back a step, and you can ask what caused that cause.

So, to break out of this conundrum, they assert that God exists outside of time, which means he has no cause, as we understand it. Of course, playing this fast and loose with things raises several other questions:
  • If you believe something can exist without being caused, how do you know the universe needs to be caused?
  • If you believe that the universe was created by something "outside of time", how do you know that thing is intelligent?
  • If God existed outside of time before creating everything, what was he doing for infinity years by himself? Sure, you can say he's "outside of time" and that there wasn't infinite time before the creation, but at that point, everything just becomes incoherent. How could he have acted to create everything if there is no time or causality? Its self-defeating.

That's closer to what I hear, that God exists outside of space and time, which is different than an assertion that he lives in a supernatural realm. He may have also created supernatural realms (Heaven for Angels and Christians and Hell for demons and people who talk in the theater), but those places can't exist outside of time because people go there after they die, and if there is no time then "after" isn't a thing.

Yes, no matter hoe you look at the issues surrounding God, you end up at some kind of contradiction, which is exactly what would happen if God does not exist. OK theists, you want to say that God Exists outside of space and time? Then it created the universe at no place and at no time.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes true scotsman's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: