Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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03-02-2016, 01:28 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-02-2016 10:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 09:29 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  That can only mean that you don’t have a clue how to answer it, because it is not at all a foolish question.

It is. If you are inquiring about a house and you'd like to know the square footage of the house, does "time" play a factor? No. If you ask what time it is, does space play a factor? No, it doesn't. Time and space are distinct, depending on the context.

Wrong. They are intimately and inseparably related. See, there was this guy named Einstein, but I guess you’ve been too busy with lame apologetics to learn anything about science.

And that wasn’t the point anyway. Even if you consider space and time to be completely independent of each other, who says that either of them consists of “discrete things” (your words)? Please explain what these discrete things might be.

Quote:According to Big Bang cosmology, our universe began to exist...it started from a singularity point at which all space and matter was condensed into a very small point...so that there was literally no space and no time. The question is, how/why did "it" expand only 13.7 billion years ago...and no one is stupid enough to posit a universe (singularity point) that was just sitting there for eternity, waiting to expand.

That is why cosmologists (who are almost all naturalists) keep positing all of these pre-big bang scenario's to provide some justification as to where the hell did the singularity come from in the first place, and why did it expand.

The problem is, you can't trace the cause all the way back to past-eternity, which is precisely why a timeless cause is needed.

I guess you weren’t reading my last post too closely. We don’t know what actually happened at the Big Bang – we can only approach that moment in time. And we know nothing at all about “before” the Big Bang. We don’t even know if the phrase “before the Big Bang” has any meaning. The concepts of time and space are incoherent beyond that point.

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(03-02-2016 09:29 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  “Pimp”? Really? You have to be pretty desperate when that’s the best you can do for an argument.

Oh, please.

What do you mean, “Oh, please”? Is that what they teach you in Lame Apologetics School? When your argument isn’t working, call your opponent a pimp? If you want to have a discussion, that’s one thing. If it’s just going to be name-calling, I’m out. I have better things to do. I’m probably out anyway, because you are incapable of learning anything. You think you already know it all. I’m not going to waste my time beating my head against that wall of cartilage.

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(03-02-2016 09:29 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I have already admitted that mathematics is not useful in metaphysics. You’re the one who keeps trying to use it. I have not decided yet whether or not metaphysics itself is useful. I tend to think not, but unlike you, I don’t like to make dogmatic pronouncements about things that are beyond my knowledge and experience.

First off, I didn't use mathematics for metaphysical arguments...I used mathematics to demonstrate the absurd REALITY of what it would be like if actual infinites exists. The only thing you want to do is say "you can't do that"...and my question is what the hell do you mean I can do that? When you negate a timeless First Cause, you are in default saying that infinite regression is possible, which it isn't.

So infinite regression is impossible/absurd/whatever word you want to use? But you have no problem with an invisible, immaterial intelligence that exists “outside of time and space” and is somehow capable of creating everything there is out of nothing? That’s not impossible or absurd? Give me a break. You use one supposed absurdity to “prove” another. I’m not impressed. You could just as easily use reduction ad absurdum to conclude that since the God that you come up with is clearly impossible and absurd, infinite regression must therefore be possible and true. It would make equally as much sense as your conclusion.

In reality, there are simply some things we don’t understand, and some things we don’t know, and you can either just accept that, or you can become a scientist (or philosopher) and try to work toward acquiring the knowledge or understanding that you lack. You’re never going to quite get there, though, so you really need to be OK with “I don’t know”. And it doesn’t seem that you are. As Chas once said, you’re like a 5-year-old who has to have all the answers. And when you don’t have an answer, you make one up. “And this we call God”.

Me, I don’t know, and I’m not going to pretend that I do, and I’m OK with that. I can’t quite get my mind around infinite regression, either – but it makes as much sense as God does.
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03-02-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-02-2016 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Again you affirm the necessary/ contingent dichotomy which is deeply flawed. To exist is to be necessary. All facts are necessary.

I don't even know what this nonsense means, to be honest.

(03-02-2016 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I don't begin with no consciousness. You are simply trying to manufacture a problem that doesn't exist.

Hey, I am trying to figure you and this silly argument out as best as I can, and apparently, it is proving more difficult than not.

(03-02-2016 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I begin with the axioms, one of which is the axiom of consciousness.
That consciousness develops from non consciousness is directly observable.
A fetus starts out as an egg and a sperm and it develops consciousness as it matures. Do you deny this fact?

You do realize that there was a time at which there was no life, no sperm, and no egg..and on your view, NO consciousness? The question is how do you go from lack of consciousness, to consciousness. The argument is simple; thoughts aren't physical, so no physical entity can be used to explain the origin of consciousness. That is the argument in a nut shell

What you describe above is what occurred AFTER the Creation miracle. That is why, of course, you can't go in a lab and produce a mind from nonliving material. You can only explain what happened AFTER life/consciousness began...but for questions such as "but where the hell did life/consciousness come from in the first place", you need a transcendent explanation.

(03-02-2016 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It was an audience member at one of WLC's talks. I'll see if I can find a link for you. It may take me a while. But just by the fact that he advocates for Christianity, we know that he affirms that "wishing makes it so".

Please find it for me when you get the chance.
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03-02-2016, 02:35 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-02-2016 02:21 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  You do realize that there was a time at which there was no life, no sperm, and no egg..and on your view, NO consciousness?

Obviously true.

Quote:The question is how do you go from lack of consciousness, to consciousness.

By having a sufficiently complex brain. Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.

Quote:The argument is simple; thoughts aren't physical,

You disagree with neuroscientists on that. Thoughts can actually be induced - created - by electrical stimulation and magnetic fields.

Quote:so no physical entity can be used to explain the origin of consciousness.

Just did.

Quote:That is the argument in a nut shell

Failed argument.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-02-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
Quote:The argument is simple; thoughts aren't physical,

They are entirely electrical/chemical processes. You can watch them on a PET scan ... of course you are too uneducated to know what that even is.

Quote:Thoughts can actually be induced - created - by electrical stimulation and magnetic fields.

And altered by chemicals and drugs.

Quote:Just did.

Thumbsup

Quote:That is the argument in a nut shell

It's a failed argument. It's an assertion with no evidence.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-02-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Wrong. They are intimately and inseparably related. See, there was this guy named Einstein, but I guess you’ve been too busy with lame apologetics to learn anything about science.

*Ignores the fact that you didn't address my point and moves on*

Albert Einstein?? Who? Ohhh, you mean the guy that first mathematically proved that the universe had a beginning, you know, the same thing Christian theists have been saying for thousands of years??

Oh yeah, I've heard of dude.

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I guess you weren’t reading my last post too closely. We don’t know what actually happened at the Big Bang – we can only approach that moment in time. And we know nothing at all about “before” the Big Bang. We don’t even know if the phrase “before the Big Bang” has any meaning. The concepts of time and space are incoherent beyond that point.

Nonsense. The obvious reason why it is suddenly time to be intellectually lazy, is because you are aware of the implications. Anything that happens, happens in time. There is no getting beyond this. Even God himself must act in time. So regardless of your concept of time, it happened in time nevertheless.

As far as "before the Big Bang" is concerned, there was no "before" the Big Bang in terms of temporality, but there was a "before" in terms of causality, which need not to have been in time.

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  What do you mean, “Oh, please”?

You were overreacting to something that you didn't need to overreact to. Wasn't that serious.

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Is that what they teach you in Lame Apologetics School? When your argument isn’t working, call your opponent a pimp?

Yeah, criticize me for calling you a pimp. You are not doing a good job of criticizing me otherwise...so I guess you have to find an easy target somewhere.

BTW, pimp is a slang term for "buddy", "pal", etc.

So just calm yo muthafukin' nerves, aight?

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  If you want to have a discussion, that’s one thing. If it’s just going to be name-calling, I’m out. I have better things to do. I’m probably out anyway, because you are incapable of learning anything. You think you already know it all. I’m not going to waste my time beating my head against that wall of cartilage.

SMH.

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  So infinite regression is impossible/absurd/whatever word you want to use? But you have no problem with an invisible, immaterial intelligence that exists “outside of time and space” and is somehow capable of creating everything there is out of nothing? That’s not impossible or absurd? Give me a break.

I will only posit was is necessary to produce the effect. If an "invisible, immaterial intelligence that exists outside of time and space" is what is necessary to produce the given effect, then I have to keep it real with myself and go where the evidence points.

Unlike some people.

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You use one supposed absurdity to “prove” another.

Can you demonstrate the absurdity, or are you just talking?

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I’m not impressed. You could just as easily use reduction ad absurdum to conclude that since the God that you come up with is clearly impossible and absurd, infinite regression must therefore be possible and true. It would make equally as much sense as your conclusion.

First, I need evidence that the "God that I came up with" is clearly impossible and absurd. Once I get that evidence, then I will take it from there.

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  In reality, there are simply some things we don’t understand, and some things we don’t know, and you can either just accept that, or you can become a scientist (or philosopher) and try to work toward acquiring the knowledge or understanding that you lack.

So you are basically granting my point that infinity (actual) is absurd and can't exist in reality after all Thumbsup

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You’re never going to quite get there, though, so you really need to be OK with “I don’t know”.

I base my beliefs on what I do know, not what I don't know. Thank you.

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  And it doesn’t seem that you are. As Chas once said, you’re like a 5-year-old who has to have all the answers. And when you don’t have an answer, you make one up. “And this we call God”.

The ole' God of the Gaps accusation, eh?

(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Me, I don’t know, and I’m not going to pretend that I do, and I’m OK with that. I can’t quite get my mind around infinite regression, either – but it makes as much sense as God does.

Grasshopper...um, dude...it can't happen, ok? An actual infinite cannot exist in reality. It is a logical absurdity. God himself can't even get you an actual infinite number of things...nor can God traverse infinity.

And if God can't even do it, it can't be done. Wake up and smell the coffee, bro. Continuing to deny God and refusing to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior is ultimately what it is about. You (and others) don't like the idea of being held accountable to a Cosmic Creator.

The God of this universe loves you. The God of this universe loves me. Examine the evidence/arguments for the Resurrection...accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and receive eternal life Cool
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03-02-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-02-2016 02:53 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 01:28 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Wrong. They are intimately and inseparably related. See, there was this guy named Einstein, but I guess you’ve been too busy with lame apologetics to learn anything about science.

*Ignores the fact that you didn't address my point and moves on*

Albert Einstein?? Who? Ohhh, you mean the guy that first mathematically proved that the universe had a beginning, you know, the same thing Christian theists have been saying for thousands of years??

Factually incorrect.

Quote:I base my beliefs on what I do know, not what I don't know. Thank you.

Admitting what is not known is part of an intellectually honest belief system.

Quote:Grasshopper...um, dude...it can't happen, ok? An actual infinite cannot exist in reality. It is a logical absurdity. God himself can't even get you an actual infinite number of things...nor can God traverse infinity.

You traverse actual infinities all the time. There are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1, and infinitely many numbers between any pair of those, and infinitely many numbers between any pair of those, ad infinitum.
Every step you take traverses an infinity of points.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-02-2016, 03:21 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
I guess call of the troll is going to continue ignoring responses questioning him to specifically provide backup to claims he thinks are true.

And just like this Einstein claim, just say things that are fundamentally inaccurate to what scientific claims by scientists or scientific theories he mentions are. That's the problem with him or Q & the types of apologists who would say science says X is the truth but they don't know what they're talking about... they just know they disagree with something that someone must of told them other people "claim" despite the lack of assertion actually being there.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-02-2016, 03:22 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-02-2016 02:21 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Again you affirm the necessary/ contingent dichotomy which is deeply flawed. To exist is to be necessary. All facts are necessary.

I don't even know what this nonsense means, to be honest.

No you don't, but you continue to make use of what you don't understand. And if you don't understand it, how do you know it is nonsense? The necessary/contingent or analytic/ synthetic dichotomy is rampant today. It is a false dichotomy which results from a flawed understanding of concepts and how they are formed. It introduces a split at the base of knowledge for which there is no objective justification. Basically, it is based in a primacy of consciousness view of knowledge. You see there is no issue that does not involve metaphysical primacy. It's no wonder that you make this error over and over again since you affirm, at least some of the time, the primacy of consciousness and you have no understanding of concepts and the hierarchical structure of knowledge.

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03-02-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-02-2016 02:21 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-02-2016 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I don't begin with no consciousness. You are simply trying to manufacture a problem that doesn't exist.

Hey, I am trying to figure you and this silly argument out as best as I can, and apparently, it is proving more difficult than not.

If you don't understand my argument, how do you know it is silly and how do you know that it is not valid and sound? If it is proving difficult, perhaps you should think about it and learn before you pass judgement.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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03-02-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-02-2016 02:53 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Albert Einstein?? Who? Ohhh, you mean the guy that first mathematically proved that the universe had a beginning, you know, the same thing Christian theists have been saying for thousands of years??

That's not what theists said. The Bible says nothing about a universe. The universe as known to day, was unknown until the beginning of the 20th Century. The Bible assumes a universe. That's also not what Einstein said. In fact he thought the opposite.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2...-big-bang/

Quote:Even God himself must act in time.

Again refuting god's omnipotence, AND not explaining who created the reality your god finds itself in.

Quote:there was no "before" the Big Bang in terms of temporality, but there was a "before" in terms of causality, which need not to have been in time.

Because the dunce says so ? "before" is a temporal concept. It requires TIME. There is no way arond it. Your asserton is meaningless.

Quote:BTW, pimp is a slang term for "buddy", "pal", etc.

Facepalm

Quote:I will only posit was is necessary to produce the effect. If an "invisible, immaterial intelligence that exists outside of time and space" is what is necessary to produce the given effect, then I have to keep it real with myself and go where the evidence points.

So ... you think you get to cook up an explanation you DON'T have, and make up any shit you like to make up that explanation.

Quote:I base my beliefs on what I do know, not what I don't know. Thank you.

Then you have none, as you clearly know know nothing about anything.

Quote:Grasshopper...um, dude...it can't happen, ok? An actual infinite cannot exist in reality. It is a logical absurdity. God himself can't even get you an actual infinite number of things...nor can God traverse infinity.

Pretty impotent deity ya gots yerself.

Quote:The God of this universe loves you. The God of this universe loves me. Examine the evidence/arguments for the Resurrection...accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and receive eternal life Cool

That won't take long, since there are none.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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