Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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04-02-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(04-02-2016 04:32 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 03:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  If you stop and take the time to count an infinite number of points then it will take you an infinite amount of time to do so.

No shit, Captain Obvious.

(04-02-2016 03:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  So don't stop to count, just traverse.

Makes no sense.

(04-02-2016 03:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  Why am I not surprised that it makes no sense to you? Facepalm

You do not understand the mathematics that you claim to and misuse.

I understand all I need to understand.

That is willful ignorance.

Quote:
(04-02-2016 03:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  If it is "demonstrably impossible", demonstrate it.

Simple. If we've reached "today" based on traversing an infinite number/amount of "yesterdays", then we would never arrive at "today"....in the same way we would never arrive at "B" if we counted all of the points in between A and B.

Who's stopping to count them? Just like going from A to B is done all the time because we don't stop to count the uncountable points.

Quote:You cannot reach infinity by successive addition. The fact that we've reached "today" would mean that an infinity "set" of days have already been counted.

If you are counting days, then there is a countable infinity of them.

Quote:

Counted from where? I think you are making a cardinality error. Every moment in the past is a finite distance from any other moment. We get from any moment in the past to now because it is a finite amount of time between them.

Quote:Or better yet, we can look at it this way. If the past is eternal, that would mean that there are an infinite number of centuries havepasted...an infinite number of milleniums have pasted...an infinite number of days, months, years, etc....this, DESPITE the fact that each of those frames of time have different values.

What does that mean?

Quote:Or the fact that, as I said before (which was ignored)...we've arrived at "today", correct? How many days lead up today? An infinite amount of days, right? If you were given the task of counting BACKWARDS, one by one, the EQUAL number of days going BACKWARDS that it took to arrive FORWARD (today), at what number day would you stop at??

You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.

Quote:Huh? Remember, EQUAL distance. It is impossible to stop at any numbered day of equal distance...because there will always be a day that preceded whatever day you stop at...so you would never actually arrive at a day.

You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.

Quote:So what the hell does that mean? Well, if you can't an equal day going BACKWARDS, then how in the hell could you ever reach equal distance going FORWARD??? Consider It works both ways.

There is no 'equal'. It is infinite - it never started.

Quote:If and ONLY if there was a past boundary...a beginning, would you EVER be able to reach equal distance. Because you can only reach equal distance when there are two reference points.

Infinity = infinity

Quote:And unfortunately for you and your worldview, there is no way out of this. This is a logical issue, and it is independent of any cosmologist, physicists, biologist, mathematician, whatever. There is no way out of this. No escape. A First Cause is absolutely, positively necessary.

No, your argument is unconvincing. An infinite past is mathematically consistent., there are no contradictions. You (actually you're using Craig's arguments) have tried to force finitude on infinity and that leads to the problems you claim exist. Transfinite mathematics has its own rules.

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04-02-2016, 05:12 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(04-02-2016 03:29 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 02:21 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I can totally understand that you're having trouble understanding. It took me a long time, I've been an Objectivist for over 10 years now. I've understood it for so long that it seems hard to imagine that anyone would have a hard time with it. So don't feel like you should get it right away.

Funny you say that, because I can't tell you how long it took me to understand the MOA. It took a while. But after I got it, dammit, I got it!! And what is more difficult than understanding the MOA? Getting others to understand the MOA. Explaining it. Where do you start?

So I'm with you there.

(04-02-2016 02:21 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I've tried to explain it in as simple terms as I can, not because I think you are stupid, but this is probably all new to you and it's a new way of looking at the issue. Still though, if you don't fully understand it, don't you think it is a little premature to declare it silly nonsense?

Perhaps..maybe, yes.

(04-02-2016 02:21 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You'll want to be careful. The only videos I've seen on the subject, the presenters don't get it right. They make many errors. for instance the videos by Ozzymandius are pretty bad and in need of a lot of correction. I reccomend, if you are really interested in understanding, that you read the original source material. I recommend the essay titled The Made versus the Metaphysically given in Philosophy: Who Needs it.

I will look in to that.

I too understand the MOA. It is pure rationalism and violates the POE. We don't define things into existence. Just because we can conceive of something doesn't mean that it exists. Definitions apply to concepts, not unique entities. It is also invalid to call God a concept. It is supposed to be sui generis, not an abstraction.

I also recommend you read The Analytic/ Synthetic Dichotomy by Leonard Piekoff. It can be found in Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.

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04-02-2016, 07:00 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 04:32 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  No shit, Captain Obvious.


Makes no sense.


I understand all I need to understand.

That is willful ignorance.

Quote:Simple. If we've reached "today" based on traversing an infinite number/amount of "yesterdays", then we would never arrive at "today"....in the same way we would never arrive at "B" if we counted all of the points in between A and B.

Who's stopping to count them? Just like going from A to B is done all the time because we don't stop to count the uncountable points.

Quote:You cannot reach infinity by successive addition. The fact that we've reached "today" would mean that an infinity "set" of days have already been counted.

If you are counting days, then there is a countable infinity of them.

Quote:

Counted from where? I think you are making a cardinality error. Every moment in the past is a finite distance from any other moment. We get from any moment in the past to now because it is a finite amount of time between them.

Quote:Or better yet, we can look at it this way. If the past is eternal, that would mean that there are an infinite number of centuries havepasted...an infinite number of milleniums have pasted...an infinite number of days, months, years, etc....this, DESPITE the fact that each of those frames of time have different values.

What does that mean?

Quote:Or the fact that, as I said before (which was ignored)...we've arrived at "today", correct? How many days lead up today? An infinite amount of days, right? If you were given the task of counting BACKWARDS, one by one, the EQUAL number of days going BACKWARDS that it took to arrive FORWARD (today), at what number day would you stop at??

You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.

Quote:Huh? Remember, EQUAL distance. It is impossible to stop at any numbered day of equal distance...because there will always be a day that preceded whatever day you stop at...so you would never actually arrive at a day.

You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.

Quote:So what the hell does that mean? Well, if you can't an equal day going BACKWARDS, then how in the hell could you ever reach equal distance going FORWARD??? Consider It works both ways.

There is no 'equal'. It is infinite - it never started.

Quote:If and ONLY if there was a past boundary...a beginning, would you EVER be able to reach equal distance. Because you can only reach equal distance when there are two reference points.

Infinity = infinity

Quote:And unfortunately for you and your worldview, there is no way out of this. This is a logical issue, and it is independent of any cosmologist, physicists, biologist, mathematician, whatever. There is no way out of this. No escape. A First Cause is absolutely, positively necessary.

No, your argument is unconvincing. An infinite past is mathematically consistent., there are no contradictions. You (actually you're using Craig's arguments) have tried to force finitude on infinity and that leads to the problems you claim exist. Transfinite mathematics has its own rules.

A "first cause" of Reality would not necessarily be the proximate (closest) cause of the universe. Causality remains unexplained. How does a deity cause causality ? It's meaningless.
COTW cannot explain the "realm" and the "necessary Reality" his stupid deity exists in, of necessity. So he's negating his own argument. His argument explains nothing.
Not that that surprises anyone.

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04-02-2016, 10:58 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(04-02-2016 07:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is willful ignorance.


Who's stopping to count them? Just like going from A to B is done all the time because we don't stop to count the uncountable points.


If you are counting days, then there is a countable infinity of them.


Counted from where? I think you are making a cardinality error. Every moment in the past is a finite distance from any other moment. We get from any moment in the past to now because it is a finite amount of time between them.


What does that mean?


You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.


You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.


There is no 'equal'. It is infinite - it never started.


Infinity = infinity


No, your argument is unconvincing. An infinite past is mathematically consistent., there are no contradictions. You (actually you're using Craig's arguments) have tried to force finitude on infinity and that leads to the problems you claim exist. Transfinite mathematics has its own rules.

A "first cause" of Reality would not necessarily be the proximate (closest) cause of the universe. Causality remains unexplained. How does a deity cause causality ? It's meaningless.
COTW cannot explain the "realm" and the "necessary Reality" his stupid deity exists in, of necessity. So he's negating his own argument. His argument explains nothing.
Not that that surprises anyone.

This is the crux right here. Asking who created the universe is the same as asking who caused causality. COTW likes to use the phrase "bottom line". Well this is the bottom line. There is no line more bottom than existence. That's why it is the logical and the only proper starting point.

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05-02-2016, 01:01 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2016 01:05 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
Quote:Or better yet, we can look at it this way. If the past is eternal, that would mean that there are an infinite number of centuries havepasted...an infinite number of milleniums have pasted...an infinite number of days, months, years, etc....this, DESPITE the fact that each of those frames of time have different values.

Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

Quote:What does that mean?

It means they "have pasted". What do you think it means ?
What ? You never heard about things that "have pasted" ?
Weeping

Facepalm

I think his brain "has pasted".


BTW .... MOA. Is that the Mall of America ?

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05-02-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Who's stopping to count them? Just like going from A to B is done all the time because we don't stop to count the uncountable points.

Nonsense. If the past is eternal, all of the days that preceded "today" would in fact have to be counted/traversed. There is no way around it. You have to get through today to get to tomorrow, and you have to get to through yesterday to get to today.

That is the point; when you say "...going from A to B is done all the time because we don't stop to count the uncountable points", that is like saying "we can get to 2-5-16 because we don't stop to count the uncountable days that preceded it".

What do you mean "we don't stop to count"?, you have to account for the days that preceded today, just like you have to account for the days that will succeed today.

When you apply the concept of actual infinities to reality (real life situations) you get these absurd results. But if it can't happen in simple thought analogies, it can't happen in real life.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  If you are counting days, then there is a countable infinity of them.

Then you should be able to go back in time and reach equal distance, arriving at a specific day. But what numbered day would you arrive at?? This is impossible, because for whatever day you arrived at, there would still be an infinite number of days that preceded it!!!

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Counted from where? I think you are making a cardinality error. Every moment in the past is a finite distance from any other moment. We get from any moment in the past to now because it is a finite amount of time between them.

Nonsense. You said earlier that there are an infinite number of points between A and B...now you are saying there is a "finite amount of time between them". Which is it, finite, or infinite?

The only way there would be a finite amount of time between them would be if there is a past boundary.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  What does that mean?

It means...

Year: 365 days
Century: 100 years
Millenium: 1,000 years

Each one (year, century, millenium) has different values. But if the past is eternal, there are an infinite number of years, centuries, and milleniums...DESPITE the fact that they all have different values!!

Just think about that for a second; if the past is eternal, there are an infinite number of individual millenium "sets". If the past is eternal, there is also an infinite number of century "sets".

But each one has different values...yet, there is the same amount of "sets" for each category. You don't see the absurdity with that???

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.

So how could we have ever "stopped" today? We've arrived at "today". If we've successfully reached today with no problem (having traversed an infinite number of preceding days), we should be able to reach equal distance backwards with no problem.

Consider

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.

Then you can't move forward. If you can't reach equal distance backwards from a given forward point, then how in the hell can you move forward from a given backwards point???

Now of course you will say "there is no given backwards point since it is infinite"...and my reply would be again, "well, there can be no given forward point".

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no 'equal'. It is infinite - it never started.

Then again, there can be no "today".

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Infinity = infinity

Thanks again, Captain Obvious Thumbsup

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, your argument is unconvincing.

No, your refutations have failed. You didn't offer one good refutation of the absurdity involving an actual infinite. You did exactly what I thought you would do, and that is teeter around the subject.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  An infinite past is mathematically consistent.

It is logically inconsistent. When applied to real life scenario's, it can't happen.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  , there are no contradictions.

Yet you gave a contradictory response to the question. If we've arrived at today, after having traversed an infinite number/amount of preceding days, then why in the hell can't we reach a day of equal distance in the past relative to the present today that we've reached moving forward.

Merely saying "we can't because it is infinite" is not an adequate response to the problem...it is actually part of the problem.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  You (actually you're using Craig's arguments) have tried to force finitude on infinity and that leads to the problems you claim exist.

Actually, the arguments against infinity has been around way before Craig. Ever heard of the Hilberts Hotel paradox?? Consider

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Transfinite mathematics has its own rules.

Fine, use those rules and apply it to real life scenario's, and the same absurdities will result.

Use whatever rules you like. Doesn't matter one teeny bit. Logical problems are independent of mathematics Laugh out load
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05-02-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(04-02-2016 05:12 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I too understand the MOA. It is pure rationalism and violates the POE. We don't define things into existence.

Who is defining something into existence?

(04-02-2016 05:12 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Just because we can conceive of something doesn't mean that it exists.

That is not the MOA. That is the original St. Anslem's version. I am talking about Plantiga's version, and in that version, all we need to do is prove that it is possible for God to exist, and since all possible necessary truths must be possible, then it follows that God must exist.

(04-02-2016 05:12 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Definitions apply to concepts, not unique entities.

How something is defined is independent of whether or not this "something" exists.

(04-02-2016 05:12 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  It is also invalid to call God a concept.

Concepts can be actual.

(04-02-2016 05:12 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  It is supposed to be sui generis, not an abstraction.

I also recommend you read The Analytic/ Synthetic Dichotomy by Leonard Piekoff. It can be found in Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.

Man you sure think this argument means something, don't you? Laugh out load
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05-02-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(05-02-2016 05:01 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Nonsense. If the past is eternal, all of the days that preceded "today" would in fact have to be counted/traversed. There is no way around it. You have to get through today to get to tomorrow, and you have to get to through yesterday to get to today.

Hey dumb-ass. Until very very recently in the cosmic scheme, (to say nothing of "other than" it), there were no "days" to count. You have no evidence that spacetime was real until this universe formed. You are SO fucked up.

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05-02-2016, 05:29 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(05-02-2016 05:01 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Who's stopping to count them? Just like going from A to B is done all the time because we don't stop to count the uncountable points.

Nonsense. If the past is eternal, all of the days that preceded "today" would in fact have to be counted/traversed. There is no way around it. You have to get through today to get to tomorrow, and you have to get to through yesterday to get to today.

That is the point; when you say "...going from A to B is done all the time because we don't stop to count the uncountable points", that is like saying "we can get to 2-5-16 because we don't stop to count the uncountable days that preceded it".

What do you mean "we don't stop to count"?, you have to account for the days that preceded today, just like you have to account for the days that will succeed today.

When you apply the concept of actual infinities to reality (real life situations) you get these absurd results. But if it can't happen in simple thought analogies, it can't happen in real life.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  If you are counting days, then there is a countable infinity of them.

Then you should be able to go back in time and reach equal distance, arriving at a specific day. But what numbered day would you arrive at?? This is impossible, because for whatever day you arrived at, there would still be an infinite number of days that preceded it!!!

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Counted from where? I think you are making a cardinality error. Every moment in the past is a finite distance from any other moment. We get from any moment in the past to now because it is a finite amount of time between them.

Nonsense. You said earlier that there are an infinite number of points between A and B...now you are saying there is a "finite amount of time between them". Which is it, finite, or infinite?

The only way there would be a finite amount of time between them would be if there is a past boundary.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  What does that mean?

It means...

Year: 365 days
Century: 100 years
Millenium: 1,000 years

Each one (year, century, millenium) has different values. But if the past is eternal, there are an infinite number of years, centuries, and milleniums...DESPITE the fact that they all have different values!!

Just think about that for a second; if the past is eternal, there are an infinite number of individual millenium "sets". If the past is eternal, there is also an infinite number of century "sets".

But each one has different values...yet, there is the same amount of "sets" for each category. You don't see the absurdity with that???

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.

So how could we have ever "stopped" today? We've arrived at "today". If we've successfully reached today with no problem (having traversed an infinite number of preceding days), we should be able to reach equal distance backwards with no problem.

Consider

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  You wouldn't stop - it's infinite.

Then you can't move forward. If you can't reach equal distance backwards from a given forward point, then how in the hell can you move forward from a given backwards point???

Now of course you will say "there is no given backwards point since it is infinite"...and my reply would be again, "well, there can be no given forward point".

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no 'equal'. It is infinite - it never started.

Then again, there can be no "today".

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Infinity = infinity

Thanks again, Captain Obvious Thumbsup

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, your argument is unconvincing.

No, your refutations have failed. You didn't offer one good refutation of the absurdity involving an actual infinite. You did exactly what I thought you would do, and that is teeter around the subject.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  An infinite past is mathematically consistent.

It is logically inconsistent. When applied to real life scenario's, it can't happen.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  , there are no contradictions.

Yet you gave a contradictory response to the question. If we've arrived at today, after having traversed an infinite number/amount of preceding days, then why in the hell can't we reach a day of equal distance in the past relative to the present today that we've reached moving forward.

Merely saying "we can't because it is infinite" is not an adequate response to the problem...it is actually part of the problem.

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  You (actually you're using Craig's arguments) have tried to force finitude on infinity and that leads to the problems you claim exist.

Actually, the arguments against infinity has been around way before Craig. Ever heard of the Hilberts Hotel paradox?? Consider

(04-02-2016 05:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Transfinite mathematics has its own rules.

Fine, use those rules and apply it to real life scenario's, and the same absurdities will result.

Use whatever rules you like. Doesn't matter one teeny bit. Logical problems are independent of mathematics Laugh out load

Your entire response displays your lack of understanding of the concept of infinity, mathematical or otherwise. There is no point that is infinity, no start, no end.

You can continue to assert that an infinite past is impossible, but you have provided no proof, not even evidence. Just your assertions.

Things you have wrong:
Quote:If the past is eternal, all of the days that preceded "today" would in fact have to be counted/traversed.
Sure, but there was infinite time to do so.

Quote:...there are an infinite number of years, centuries, and milleniums...DESPITE the fact that they all have different values!!
There are, in fact, a countable infinity of each. Those sets have the same cardinality (size), just like the set of natural numbers is the same size as the set of even integers is the same size as the set of prime numbers is the same size as the set of numbers divisible by 47 ...

Quote:that is like saying "we can get to 2-5-16 because we don't stop to count the uncountable days that preceded it".
But they are not uncountable, there is a countable infinity of them.

Quote:When you apply the concept of actual infinities to reality (real life situations) you get these absurd results. But if it can't happen in simple thought analogies, it can't happen in real life.
Your analogies are wrong. You are applying concepts of the finite to the infinite.

Quote:Then you should be able to go back in time and reach equal distance, arriving at a specific day. But what numbered day would you arrive at??
What do you mean "reach equal distance"? Equal to what ?
If you pick a finite number of days, you can go back that far. You can't do that with infinity as it is not an ordinal number - there is no point labeled 'infinity'.

Quote:This is impossible, because for whatever day you arrived at, there would still be an infinite number of days that preceded it!!!
Why is it 'impossible'? If I count to a huge negative number, there is still an infinity of negative numbers to go.

Quote:Nonsense. You said earlier that there are an infinite number of points between A and B...now you are saying there is a "finite amount of time between them". Which is it, finite, or infinite?
You are making a cardinality error. The distance from A to B is finite yet there is an infinite number of points between them.

Quote:Merely saying "we can't because it is infinite" is not an adequate response to the problem...it is actually part of the problem.
No, it really is the answer - your examples are in error as you do not understand the maths.

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05-02-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(05-02-2016 05:06 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Who is defining something into existence?

You are. See below.

(04-02-2016 05:12 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I am talking about Plantiga's version, and in that version, all we need to do is prove that it is possible for God to exist, and since all possible necessary truths must be possible, then it follows that God must exist.

That's not even what he says. BTW saying "all possible necessary truths must be *possible*" is a meaningless tautology.

Here's the pile of nonsense both Plantigna and Craig spew on the matter. A child can see what's wrong with these ;

A being has maximal excellence in a given possible world W if and only if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good in W; and
A being has maximal greatness if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.
It is possible that there is a being that has maximal greatness. (Premise)
Therefore, possibly, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good being exists.
Therefore, (by axiom S5) it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.
Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists.

Little Billy Craig says :
It is possible that a maximally great being exists.
If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world.
If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.
If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world.
If a maximally great being exists in the actual world, then a maximally great being exists.
Therefore, a maximally great being exists.

Bunch of assertions not established in any way. Pile of non-sequiturs.

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