Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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03-10-2015, 12:46 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 09:07 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yes, no matter hoe you look at the issues surrounding God, you end up at some kind of contradiction, which is exactly what would happen if God does not exist. OK theists, you want to say that God Exists outside of space and time? Then it created the universe at no place and at no time.
No, Gods do not exist outside of time and space. Gods never said such nonsense.

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03-10-2015, 01:40 PM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 01:44 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 12:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:07 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yes, no matter hoe you look at the issues surrounding God, you end up at some kind of contradiction, which is exactly what would happen if God does not exist. OK theists, you want to say that God Exists outside of space and time? Then it created the universe at no place and at no time.
No, Gods do not exist outside of time and space. Gods never said such nonsense.

Well here we have a contradicton. You say he doesn't and other theists say he does. How are we to resolve this objectively?

I agree with you by the way, that God never said this (or anything else) but for a very different reason.

It is just a rationalization to cover for the inability or unwillingness to provide any objective evidence for their beliefs.

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03-10-2015, 01:44 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 01:40 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 12:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  No, Gods do not exist outside of time and space. Gods never said such nonsense.

Well here we have a contradicton. You say he doesn't and other theists say he does. How are we to resolve this objectively?
Easily, ask them to show you at least one revelation(book, chapter, verse) where God said this nonsense. If they don't show you this revelation (and I know they won't) ask them what is the foundation of their statement.

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03-10-2015, 01:49 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 12:46 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:07 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yes, no matter hoe you look at the issues surrounding God, you end up at some kind of contradiction, which is exactly what would happen if God does not exist. OK theists, you want to say that God Exists outside of space and time? Then it created the universe at no place and at no time.
No, Gods do not exist outside of time and space. Gods never said such nonsense.

You're right. Gods claim to live on Mt. Olympus, up in the sky somewhere, on Kolob, etc.

Outside of space and time is something believers made up to help their gods get out of the "well, I'm standing where your god said he lives, and I see no god" problem.

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03-10-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 01:44 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 01:40 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Well here we have a contradiction. You say he doesn't and other theists say he does. How are we to resolve this objectively?
Easily, ask them to show you at least one revelation(book, chapter, verse) where God said this nonsense. If they don't show you this revelation (and I know they won't) ask them what is the foundation of their statement.

Well religious books are written in such a way as they can be interpreted many different ways. Just look at the many contradictory interpretations of Genesis for instance. And how would one know the revelation wasn't something someone just made up. Don't you see the point? This whole notion that the universe needs an explanation but God doesn't is just arbitrary. Pointing to an arbitrary source for an explanation of an arbitrary explanation does not explain anything. It is just unnecessary rationalization. If the theist acknowledges that something as complex as a god can exist without cause or design then logically the universe can as well. And by starting with the universe, or existence as a whole, one does not commit the fallacy of the stolen concept as theism does. Starting with what we know exists is both logically and conceptually valid. Starting with a god is not because it is not an objective starting point. Existence is an objective starting point.

I have no alternative but to imagine a god that exists without a cause and is eternal but when I do I recognize the fact that I'm imagining it. When I look out at reality I don't have to imagine it. It's right there to be investigated and identified.

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03-10-2015, 05:55 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 03:20 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Well religious books are written in such a way as they can be interpreted many different ways. Just look at the many contradictory interpretations of Genesis for instance. And how would one know the revelation wasn't something someone just made up. Don't you see the point?
Just ask them to show you the quote that they interpret as "God exists outside of time and space" I promise you, they won't be able to do this.
If they say it was personal revelation then you can tell them that they have to keep that revelation to themselves and that you will wait when God gives you the same personal revelation.
(03-10-2015 03:20 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  If the theist acknowledges that something as complex as a god can exist without cause or design then logically the universe can as well.
What God says such nonsense that He(God) can exist without cause or design?

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03-10-2015, 06:53 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 05:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 03:20 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Well religious books are written in such a way as they can be interpreted many different ways. Just look at the many contradictory interpretations of Genesis for instance. And how would one know the revelation wasn't something someone just made up. Don't you see the point?
Just ask them to show you the quote that they interpret as "God exists outside of time and space" I promise you, they won't be able to do this.
If they say it was personal revelation then you can tell them that they have to keep that revelation to themselves and that you will wait when God gives you the same personal revelation.
(03-10-2015 03:20 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  If the theist acknowledges that something as complex as a god can exist without cause or design then logically the universe can as well.
What God says such nonsense that He(God) can exist without cause or design?
I didn't say a God said this, I said theists claim this whenever I ask them who created God. I don't believe that gods say anything at all. Lot's of different people say things about gods that, as far as I can tell, they are merely imagining. But now if you are saying that gods can't exist without a cause, that's a new one. That's the only way I can understand what you wrote. Is that what you are saying and if so what is the cause and who designed God?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

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03-10-2015, 09:01 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 06:53 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I didn't say a God said this, I said theists claim this whenever I ask them who created God. I don't believe that gods say anything at all.
I know but I give you an advice what to tell those who claim such things about God(whatever their God is).
(03-10-2015 06:53 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Is that what you are saying and if so what is the cause and who designed God?
Yes, this is what I am saying. God of our world is created by His God.
And that God is created by another God.

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03-10-2015, 11:36 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 09:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 06:53 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I didn't say a God said this, I said theists claim this whenever I ask them who created God. I don't believe that gods say anything at all.
I know but I give you an advice what to tell those who claim such things about God(whatever their God is).
(03-10-2015 06:53 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Is that what you are saying and if so what is the cause and who designed God?
Yes, this is what I am saying. God of our world is created by His God.
And that God is created by another God.

That would set up an infinite regress. Do you think that is possible?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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04-10-2015, 12:48 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(03-10-2015 11:36 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  I know but I give you an advice what to tell those who claim such things about God(whatever their God is).
Yes, this is what I am saying. God of our world is created by His God.
And that God is created by another God.

That would set up an infinite regress. Do you think that is possible?

That's cute, assuming Alla is capable of independent thought! Good one! Laugh out load

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