Who Created the Creator?
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21-04-2011, 11:12 AM
Who Created the Creator?
Whutup, y'all.

There is a question that I've heard repeated many times on this site and across various other media. The question is: Who created the creator?

Now, it strikes me that the intent of this question is not to be answered (no one expects someone to turn around and confidently say, “Glexor the Magnificent of Ultra Reality Non-Universe Slebknock did”), but rather to discredit the idea of a creator in the first place. By that I mean, it basically says, "If there is a creator of this universe, then there must be a creator of that creator and that's just silly, one, and two, if you don't know who the creator's creator is, then that is somehow evidence that there is no creator."

Now I'm not saying there is or is not a creator, or a creator's creator. Homey don’t play dat. I do find it kind of odd to think that the universe has no purpose. If life, the universe and everything came into existence just cuz, then it all seems rather pointless. But if it was created for a reason, that seems more interesting to me. I think that's a digression.

Anyhoo, I don't think that we need to know who created the creator if there is a creator of our universe. All anyone is really asking is, how did things come to be this way? Big bang? Spaghetti Monster? Dude with a beard? But we don't know...

You know what? My brain just short circuited. Whenever I start to think of what it means for there to be no space-time, or what was before existence started, or are there multiple universes, or does anything exist outside of them, or is the very idea of existence too narrow a focus to understand things, or was the universe created and if so, who created the creator and how far back, if time actually applies, do we go until we hit an initial creator, or is creation just a loop and all creators create each other endlessly, or can no concept housed in my inner-skull meat even come close to being able to grasp any of this, my brain just melts. It's so incomprehensible to me. Like really. Utterly.

Anyhoo, all I'm saying is while there may or may not be a creator of this universe, not having an answer for who created the creator, or did something create the creator, does not negate the possibility of there being a creator.

Anyhoo, feel free to rip this apart Cool

My head hurts. Where's the aspirin?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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21-04-2011, 11:31 AM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
It is even more interesting of an idea to me that there is no creator. The reason is simple. If the only processes that could have created the universe were natural then we can figure that out, in time. We can reconstruct it using models and learn from it. If it was all put into motion by an all powerful being then we cannot test it or figure it out or learn from it. Summary: No creator = science/mathematics can explain it and we can learn from it
Creator: they said "appear" and then everything happened and we will never know how or why and we cannot learn from it or simulate it.
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21-04-2011, 11:47 AM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Matt - good stuff on a Thursday (jk)!

I've never been a fan of the creator/creator argument. For the Jew/Christian - god is and ever was - guess that works, but they follow a strange calendar and time keeping system. I mean, in their strange flat earth viewpoint (and this isn't a blanket statement meant for all Christians), if the earth is only 6,000ish years old, what was god doing throughout time eternal? You'd think that we were just a lab experiment in his timeless laboratory, and a bad experiment at that looking outside the window...

One thing you bring up that I find fascinating is your hope that all this has a purpose; however when you look at the beautiful and often violent randomness that exists not only on earth but throughout he universe, I seriously hold no thought that any of this is designed by a script. I think this is an inherent human meme that is at the heart of man' NEED to believe in a higher power of some sort - that desire to believe we are somehow specialer than everything else therefore my life has meaning and I'm "supposed" to do something with my life because the "creator" put me here for a reason - I flat out reject that idea as nothing more than homo sapien ego. To believe otherwise is to think that the triple disaster in Japan is unfolding according to plan - just don't see man...

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21-04-2011, 12:10 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Hey, guys.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean purpose like, "you are destined to," fuck I don't know, "invent the hacky sack. Such is God’s plan. Let Him be praised." I don't mean purpose for people, I mean purpose for existence. MIT did some computer models where they created a world inside a computer where creatures were given the ability to move and then there were selection pressures put on them. So all kinds of wacky creatures evolved with weird ways to be motile. Nifty. But that was a universe created for a purpose. Mechanistic. Sure. But with a purpose. If those creatures became self-aware, they might be able to figure out the rules. And if they could somehow speak to the programmers, they might be told, “Actually you exist because I’m working on my doctorate.” I mean, if our universe just is, then whooptie fuck. Existence is an accident. We can have a great big math cake and write the equation of everything on it in pink frosting, but it won't tell us WHY we exist, it'll just confirm THAT we exist. Maybe HOW we exist. Not very inspiring. For me anyway. "So why does existence exist?" "Meh. No reason." Doesn't exactly get me wet, namean?

I mean, this 6 000 years business is nonsense. It’s clear that we have a universe that’s a few billion years old with very clear rules that govern it and that make it a self-governing system. So I don’t think a creator needs to meddle to make it tick, but that it might be so inclined for whatever reason. But for me, creator is just that, what created this? Why is math math? Why does water freeze at 0 C? Why does selection work like it does? Basically, what, if anything, programmed the universe and to what end?

Anyhoo, that's all digression. I'm really just talking about how a lack of knowledge of what lies beyond this universe doesn't discredit the idea of a creator. I think logic as we understand it fails once there's no space-time, fundamental forces, or math. So who knows what lies beyond time and space?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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21-04-2011, 12:10 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
(21-04-2011 11:12 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I do find it kind of odd to think that the universe has no purpose. If life, the universe and everything came into existence just cuz, then it all seems rather pointless. But if it was created for a reason, that seems more interesting to me.

I know there's a lot more to the thread than just this, but if I tried to address the whole thing at once my brain would probably explode. So....

I've always found it kind of odd to think the universe DOES have a purpose. (Maybe that's just cuz I'm odd) I really do think it's all pointless. That comes off as sounding very pessimistic, but I don't mean it that way. I am very comfortable with things being random. I don't believe in Karma, I don't thing anything was put on earth for us, I don't think the universe happened for a reason. I don't know how it happened, but I really am OK with not knowing. Truth be told, I have a harder time wrapping my head around the idea that we were "created" than I do accepting that we all just happened for no reason whatsoever.

The things we do know. The knowledge we do have. The parts of the natural world we do understand. These are so amazing and beautiful and scary and mind-boggling that I just don't understand why we would bother trying to attribute them to some sort of purpose. tIt's all just so awesome that it doesn't NEED a purpose.



....but that's just me.

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21-04-2011, 12:26 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
I find it a more compelling story to think of life existing in a universe that is not guided, directed or created for any specific or general purpose. Instead it is a story of the eternal struggle of life to exist. To figure out how the universe works is to give life a better chance at survival. At one point in time I would have agreed with your argument that it is only interesting if we had a purpose but I now find that to be no more satisfying than the answer "because I said so." This order from chaos that we call the universe is our home. We exist. We die. The End. I want to learn from it so that I can help future generations survive in it. In Tim Minchin's "Storm" he outlines that our existence is meaningless but because we have dared to learn from nature and ask questions we now get to experience it for twice as long as our ancestors. That is inspiring enough for me.

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21-04-2011, 07:59 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
This is a question I usually pose in response to the "You can't have something from nothing, so Gawd must have created the universe" line. So if you can't have something from nothing, you can't have a deity from nothing. Hence your god=created, hence your god=not all powerful, etc. As far as I'm concerned, the christian god does not stop an infinite regress as much as they would like. I'm sure you've gone through all that before.

In the beginning of the year I wrote a short piece for a class saying that we really have to just relax and not worry too much about the ultimate cause of everything Matt. Because we will hurt our brains trying to figure it out. Scientists keep on looking around, and it would be awesome if a Eureka! moment happened, but the fact is, we just don't know man. I personally don't let the "comfort" of design/purpose affect me. As far as I'm concerned, I'm just a batch of fertilizer percolating.

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21-04-2011, 09:10 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
(21-04-2011 11:12 AM)Ghost Wrote:  By that I mean, it basically says, "If there is a creator of this universe, then there must be a creator of that creator and that's just silly, one, and two, if you don't know who the creator's creator is, then that is somehow evidence that there is no creator."

Ehhhh, no. Evolutionists don't just assert that if you have a creator, then he must have a creator. The argument comes as a response to the often used Cosmological argument, which is based on the assumption that nothing can will itself into existence and hence, everything has a cause. Theists then claim that God is the First Cause, the unmoved mover of things in the chain of dominoes.

So the "who created the creator" query is simply to point out to creationists that if you're going to establish an "everything has a cause" rule, you can't have an exception to the rule with God, just because you choose to. We're not simply saying that a creator must have a creator and we're not actually inquiring as to who created God.


(21-04-2011 11:12 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I do find it kind of odd to think that the universe has no purpose. If life, the universe and everything came into existence just cuz, then it all seems rather pointless. But if it was created for a reason, that seems more interesting to me.

I hear that one all the time from theists. But reality is not dependent on what someone thinks or feels. To look at this vast universe with its billions of galaxies and empty space and our teeny tiny rock flying tediously around a chaotic, magnetic fireball and still assume that our little human lives have some grandiose part to play is just you suppressing fear by assuming an illusion of control.

The purpose of life is a personal decision. Just because we are here by chance doesn't mean that our lives are meaningless. We give meaning to our own lives by setting a moral standard and adhering to it as closely as possible.


(21-04-2011 11:12 AM)Ghost Wrote:  You know what? My brain just short circuited.

Every time I try to suggest to a theist that the universe may very well be infinite, having always existed, they go "I can't even think about that without my head hurting." Like I said before, the limitations of the human brain does not alter reality. This is just more reason to place our trust in the scientists and capable thinkers of our species who don't share our mental roadblocks.

After all, the reason behind most creationists mindset is a complete ignorance of science. Just because the average citizen can't figure out the solution to an Advanced Calculus problem doesn't mean that the solution doesn't exist or that we should make up our own solution to fill in the logic gaps.

(The number Flarn is now the answer to any math problem you're struggling with. There, problem solved. No need to think about it ever again. And if a mathematician disagrees with you, tell them to respect your beliefs.)


(21-04-2011 11:12 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Anyhoo, all I'm saying is while there may or may not be a creator of this universe

Yes, there MAY be a creator. But science has determined that the probability of this specific origin of life is buried in the pile of "very improbable" along with the gods of Greek Mythology and Wiccan goddesses.


You DID say to feel free to rip this post apart.

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21-04-2011, 09:56 PM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2011 10:07 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Well, I dont think the universe has a purpose, at least for us.

Believing that the universe must have a reason to exist, or even believing that the universe is "perfectly" designed for us and our needs, is with all due respect, dumb and egotistical.

I mean, we live on a little planet among "dead" planets and a "tiny" sun, we cannot travel beyond our moon, the "closest" star is Proxima Centauri (4.2 lightyears away; 2.469022657e+13 miles away). So, If the universe is "designed", Why there are not more suitable planets near us? Why is the universe extremely dangerous for us? There are a lot of hazards out there; Black Holes, Asteroids, Comets, Gamma Bursts, etc., Thats when some people realize that the universe is not designed exclusively for us or have a purpose for us and vice-versa.

Why do we feel so important?, our sun is tiny compared to other stars, why should we believe that we are special?





Well thats my humble opinion. Peace.

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21-04-2011, 11:05 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Man, that video was fucking neat! Way to Black Hole soundtrack too Cool

Hey, Buddy.

Quote:Ehhhh, no. Evolutionists don't just assert that if you have a creator, then he must have a creator. The argument comes as a response to the often used Cosmological argument, which is based on the assumption that nothing can will itself into existence and hence, everything has a cause. Theists then claim that God is the First Cause, the unmoved mover of things in the chain of dominoes.

So the "who created the creator" query is simply to point out to creationists that if you're going to establish an "everything has a cause" rule, you can't have an exception to the rule with God, just because you choose to. We're not simply saying that a creator must have a creator and we're not actually inquiring as to who created God.

That's an interesting argument. I haven't heard that one before. Thanks for sharing... could have done without the "ehhhh, no" but hey.

Quote:Ghost Wrote:
I do find it kind of odd to think that the universe has no purpose. If life, the universe and everything came into existence just cuz, then it all seems rather pointless. But if it was created for a reason, that seems more interesting to me.

I hear that one all the time from theists. But reality is not dependent on what someone thinks or feels. To look at this vast universe with its billions of galaxies and empty space and our teeny tiny rock flying tediously around a chaotic, magnetic fireball and still assume that our little human lives have some grandiose part to play is just you suppressing fear by assuming an illusion of control.

As I clarified above, I'm not talking about people. I actually don't believe in human exceptionalism, I think it's a cancerous idea and I'm pretty confident that a little planet orbiting a below-average star in the outer backwater spiral arm of a backwater galaxy is not the centre of the universe. So I'm categorically not suppressing any fear. All I said was that a universe with a purpose is more interesting to me than a universe that came into existence just cuz.

Quote:Every time I try to suggest to a theist that the universe may very well be infinite, having always existed, they go "I can't even think about that without my head hurting." Like I said before, the limitations of the human brain does not alter reality. This is just more reason to place our trust in the scientists and capable thinkers of our species who don't share our mental roadblocks.

Dude, are you comparing me to a Theist?

I think pretty much everyone would disagree that the universe has always existed.

The limitations of the human brain don't alter reality (although I am a firm believer in socially constructed reality) but the limitations of the human brain do limit our ability to comprehend reality. I have a lot of trust in scientists but I'm also aware that they haven't answered most of the questions of existence and just about none of what lies beyond this universe, if anything, so yeah, my brain gets foggy when trying to grasp the incomprehensible.

As for flarn, I officially don't understand your sense of humour.

Anyhoo, rip away. Just rip what I’m saying rather than what you assume I’m saying.

Hey, Master R.

Quote:Believing that the universe must have a reason to exist, or even believing that the universe is "perfectly" designed for us and our needs, is with all due respect, dumb and egotistical.

Why is believing that the universe must have a reason to exist (and I'd call it a hope on my part rather than a belief) dumb and egotistical? I mean the designed for us thing is pretty ridiculous despite Kirk Cameron's very compelling banana argument lol. But are you suggesting that I suggested that the universe was designed for us? Cause if you are, you reacted to something I didn't say. If you're just doing a stream of consciousness thing, my bad. Float on, brother.

Hey, Chfmagnet… I’m hip brother Cool I’m pretty chill about the everything question, but I find it interesting. For the most part it’s like a Zen thing. Kinda empties my mind of thoughts on account of all the melting and the brain matter oozing out of my ears.

Hey, Stark.

Hmm. Cool. I feel ya, brother.

I’m pretty at home with the idea of the universe being controlled by a set of algorithms (cause random doesn’t really apply). You know, if/then. I’m just interested in the entire shooting match. Like, why the fuck does the universe exist? It’s such a preposterous thing to me. Existence I mean. It’s so jagnormously complex and interesting and unfathomable and so chalk full of life that lives with such purpose, that it just seems right to me that there’s a reason for all this to exist. I can’t comprehend what that reason might be, but I like to think it’s there.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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