Who Created the Creator?
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21-04-2011, 11:39 PM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2011 11:59 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Hey there Ghost! No, I didnt say you did it, I just mentioned that because that is an argument I've heard from some theists, and pehaps I made the mistake of not being clear in that point Big Grin.

Anyway, personally I dont feel uncomfortable about the idea of randomness.

I dont think that the whole universe has a purpose, I said that it is dumb and egotistical because, it has always been uncomfortable for many people the idea of randomness, most people want things to have a purpose, a reason, etc., thats the egotistical part; the idea of randomness and chance, make us look way less big and special than we really are.

And most people think that if we dont have a supreme purpose our existence is meaningless, I reject any kind of determinism, the purpose of our lifes aside from the biological aspect is something that we chose, our purpose is whatever the purpose we want and choose IMO.

But for the universe I dont see why it SHOULD have a purpose. For example, In a galaxy far far away... A random planet and all its ocupants are "eaten" by a blackhole, do you think that it must happen for a reason? Was the purpose of this black hole destroying an entire civilization? I think that qualifies as a random event.

Peace.
I apologize for my bad english Tongue.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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22-04-2011, 12:15 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2011 12:20 AM by Observer.)
RE: Who Created the Creator?
In my mind, is solve this question by rejecting the concept of time as we perceive it.
If you could wrap your mind around that, things become more explainable.

Ps: I note your writing-style is different Ghost. You allright?
(this was a quick post. More about it here)

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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22-04-2011, 11:52 AM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Hey, Master R.

Cool beans.

I still don't get the link between the universe having a purpose and egoism. If the universe has a purpose, that has absolutely nothing to do with people (unless that purpose is to service us, which is bloody unlikely).

I mean, I think we both agree that we can dispense with the idea that everything that OCCURS must have a purpose. If a star explodes, it has a purpose. If Obama wins the presidency, it has a purpose. If I get laid, it has a purpose. I think we can both agree that the natural universe is a self-governing system that does not require the input of any outside source; like a God. Whatever happens, happens. I mean, I don’t dismiss fate and karma and destiny, but I also don’t think they must be a part of the system. Ah, the joys of Agnosticism Cool But that's not what I mean when I say, does the universe have a purpose. I'm not talking about what occurs inside the universe, I'm talking about the universe itself. Is there a reason that the universe, that existence, came into being, or was it just a giant cosmic whooptie doo? I'm grasping for an analogy, but if a house is built, it's built for a purpose. What goes on inside that house is irrelevant to the question of is there a reason that the house came into existence and does the house serve a purpose?

Hey, The Observer.

Wurt??? What do you mean my writing style is different? I mean, I'm ok, thanks for the concern, but wurt?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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22-04-2011, 12:00 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Ghost,
I think I'm getting you a little better now. You are saying that the universe didn't just happen, but instead happened because something caused it to happen. (Or at least you are suggesting this as a possibility) That does make a little more sense to me. Am I on the right track?

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22-04-2011, 12:42 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Hey, Stark.

Yup. It seems more exciting to me if something caused the universe for a reason, with some purpose in mind. That entity would be the creator (whatever entity could possibly mean). If something caused it to happen, then that invariably leads to the question, why did that something create it? To what end? For what purpose? If there was no entity, I guess defined by some sort of consciousness, but some other thing that caused it, I'd still like to know what the purpose of the universe is. But yeah, I'm not saying there's a creator or that there is a purpose, just that I'd prefer that idea to the more mundane, meh, it just sort of happened for no good reason.

It's the purpose thing that interests me. Like Agent Smith said:
Quote:There is no escaping reason, no denying purpose, because as we both know, without purpose, we would not exist. It is purpose that created us. Purpose that connects us. Purpose that pulls us, that guides us, that drive us. It is purpose that defines, purpose that binds us.

And on the creator, it seems to me that infinite regress (is that what it's called) only applies within space-time. We have no idea if things occur chronologically or if there is a cause and effect relationship outside of our universe. All bets are off.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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22-04-2011, 06:25 PM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2011 06:28 PM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Who Created the Creator?
For me as a 6 year old, the argument of where god came from was a way to suggest how silly needing a creator is. If there is a need for a creator then it should need one too. You don't really answer anything by suggesting a creator. It's circular logic to point out circular logic.

And I don't really agree that the universe hasn't always existed, before it existed there was no time, so that means it always has.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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22-04-2011, 07:06 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
(22-04-2011 12:42 PM)Ghost Wrote:  And on the creator, it seems to me that infinite regress (is that what it's called) only applies within space-time. We have no idea if things occur chronologically or if there is a cause and effect relationship outside of our universe. All bets are off.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Yeah, it's infinite regress, and your point about space-time has been brought about before. The infinite regress idea usually just applies to our universe and whatnot, but traditionally the argument isn't taken beyond that direction because it's not a commonly held theistic belief. This question has been posed though: What was the creator doing BEFORE creation?

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22-04-2011, 08:31 PM
 
RE: Who Created the Creator?
(22-04-2011 12:15 AM)The_observer Wrote:  In my mind, is solve this question by rejecting the concept of time as we perceive it.
If you could wrap your mind around that, things become more explainable.

Agreed.

"Time" (and the measurement thereof) is a human construct; used to aid in our own understanding and cognition...nothing more.
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23-04-2011, 02:25 AM (This post was last modified: 23-04-2011 02:30 AM by hotrodmike.)
RE: Who Created the Creator?
To the intial question posed by Ghost: considering what an insignificant speck we are in the vastness of the universe, and what an insignificant blip of time we have been present in it as a thinking, self-aware group of beings, I think it is amazing that we have managed to discover as much as we have about the universe outside of our immediate observation; not to mention understanding the atom and so forth.

Anyone who questions why we don't know more or demands a more complete explanation of our existence hasn't grasped the staggering gains in our knowledge in just the last couple of centuries. Imagine if a dog walked up to you tomorrow and started explaining quantum physics with a full grasp of the subject. That would be a normal person today having a conversation with a normal person who was alive 2,000 years ago, which is less than an eye-blink in the time humans have walked upright, let alone the expanse of time the universe has been around.

That we can't answer all the questions yet is not a mark against our scientific progress so far; that we're capable of even asking the questions (especially given all the religious suppression we've had to fight in order to do so) is stunningly impressive in itself.

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
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23-04-2011, 02:53 AM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Hey, Lilith Pride.

Touché. But that no time thing interests the hell out of me Cool

Hey, chfmagnet.

Nice. And to speak to that question, I suppose that if we knew what the creator of our universe (should such an entity exist) was doing before he/she/it/shklee created the universe, it'd give us a pretty incredible insight into the nature of the creator and maybe an idea of why it was so important to create our kooky universe in the first place. One of those Zen questions as far as I'm concerned. That is, unless the creator shows up and gives a lecture.

Hey, Observer and Sano.

First off, nice Tool logo, Sano. Second, I totally agree that time is a construct of the human mind. I'm just not following what is gained by nixing it. Can either of you clarify?

Hey, Hotrod.

That was very passionate, but a little off-topic, no? Not sure how it speaks to the original idea. Can you connect a couple of dots for me?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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