Who Created the Creator?
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23-04-2011, 04:07 AM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Hey, Ghost.

Perhaps I jumped ahead. The statement that caught my attention was;

(22-04-2011 12:42 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Stark.

Yup. It seems more exciting to me if something caused the universe for a reason, with some purpose in mind. That entity would be the creator (whatever entity could possibly mean). If something caused it to happen, then that invariably leads to the question, why did that something create it? To what end? For what purpose? If there was no entity, I guess defined by some sort of consciousness, but some other thing that caused it, I'd still like to know what the purpose of the universe is. But yeah, I'm not saying there's a creator or that there is a purpose, just that I'd prefer that idea to the more mundane, meh, it just sort of happened for no good reason.
...

After having too many beers I become far too literal. The specific lines "...why did that something create it?...I'd still like to know what the purpose of the universe is." made me reflect on the vastness of those questions and how it may never be possible for us to answer them, given our insignificance in the grand scope of it all, not to mention our rather short lifespans in relation to the age of the universe we would like to explain to ourselves.

That led to me realizing what immense gains we have made in our understanding of the universe, both in the larger and microscopic sense of it, in a very short time. That we have learned so much in so little time should be recognized with awe and respect; wanting to know the rest of the answers now (and I sympathise with you in that regard, for many of us would like to) seemed like asking a bit much of our hard-working scientists who have already given us far more understanding of our universe than we could possibly hope to comprehend without a doctorate in astrophysics.

So backing up a bit. You'd still like to know what the purpose of the universe is. You're saying you'd like there to be a purpose rather than it's existence just being "because it's there". And I guess I'm saying it's a bit much to ask for an answer to that question at this point in time. Not derisively, but simply as an observation. And now that I have re-read your post, I realize that you weren't expecting an answer from anyone, but just posing the general question we all have at times; wtf are we here for?

That's a valid question. I don't think there is a definitive answer. Especially not yet. It's beyond our puny reach. It may just be "because that's how it turned out." No design, no purpose, no destny, no actual reason for any of it. Shit just happened. Hard to staple some kind of reason for living your life to the best to that, I know, but that may be all there is to it. Until proven otherwise, that happens to be my current take on it.

In any case, I took a leap forward (or sideways) with the original point of this thread and got somewhat off-topic, and I apologize for that. Beer consumption is no excuse, of course, but it does cause me to do things impulsively and I will endeavour not to post under the influence in the future. At least I can still spell pretty good.

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
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23-04-2011, 04:40 AM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Really just look for a purpose in humanity for now and you have plenty of purpose. All life has purpose of their own. As has been said by mike, humans have gained an astounding view of things around them, though still limited. I tend to think one of our main purposes is gaining knowledge and propagating which has been going very smoothly. The purpose behind other lifeforms and events which may be inanimate is going to be hard for us to fully understand, but we do have an understanding of the reasons for most of the disasters that befall our planet. We understand what is happening. That just doesn't always comfort everyone.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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23-04-2011, 02:17 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
(23-04-2011 02:53 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Observer and Sano.

First off, nice Tool logo, Sano. Second, I totally agree that time is a construct of the human mind. I'm just not following what is gained by nixing it. Can either of you clarify?
I wrote in a post here somewhere
Quote:Our time perception...
Can we really be sure on how we perceive time? Just a moment ago I was typing a question mark. That was right before I typed "time". This morning I woke up and had a coffee, I was born in 1975... etc... etc... Our perception in time lies in the continues flow of fractions of irreversible moments. Moments so tiny they are un-graspable. The "present" is so small, we can't even talk about it. Talking about what is happening only makes sense "in retrospect". You are NOT reading this sentence. You have just read it. (Eat your hearth out René Magritte") This all reminds me of FLAT-WORLD as described in this and this video. Our perception of time is completely flat. This "flat time" leads me to the following questions.


-theists state that God is infinite. Has no beginning, has no end. So even the theistic approach is based on this flat time.

-imagine a world where time happens "at random" but your perception orders it. you could explain a lot of bizarre coincidences. You have no way of knowing the real order in which the events happened.

I don't take these "philosophical toys" (or brainfarts) not to seriously
however...

Can get you mind around a thought that time might as well be just a perception... A byproduct of our existence...

Cancel time out and you get a base on witch to place a whole other sort of universe...

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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23-04-2011, 02:47 PM
 
RE: Who Created the Creator?
(23-04-2011 02:53 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Observer and Sano.

First off, nice Tool logo, Sano. Second, I totally agree that time is a construct of the human mind. I'm just not following what is gained by nixing it. Can either of you clarify?

I don't think you can nix something that is only a cognitive construct.
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24-04-2011, 11:18 AM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
Hey, Hotrod.

Lol. Beer is awesome.

I agree, we've learned a lot, but in terms of understanding the vastness of the cosmos, we're still on level 1 of 100. That's fine. It is what it is. And you're right, I'm not expecting an answer. I'd love one, but hey, life's a bitch.

Hey, Lilith Pride.

See, it all comes back to purpose. As you say, there is so much purpose in the world. It's ubiquitous. It just seems odd to me that a world so filled with purpose would exist in a universe that is devoid of it. It seems to me that purpose is part of the reason of existence. But hey, that's me.

Hey, Observer.

Brother, that's far out, man. I think I agree on some levels (particularly as it has to do with socially constructed reality) but by and large, that makes my brain melt.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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24-04-2011, 11:22 AM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
(24-04-2011 11:18 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Brother, that's far out, man. I think I agree on some levels (particularly as it has to do with socially constructed reality) but by and large, that makes my brain melt.
I know... as I said... It's not to be taken seriously. But, if someone asks me what I personally think what Life's Big Secret is, I say I think it lies in the way we perceive time.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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24-04-2011, 11:27 AM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2011 11:45 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Who Created the Creator?
I believe that everything happens by random chance, but that has to do with all events, sentient beings are sentient and therefore sometimes break away from the randomness. Finding an answer as to a purpose of the universe might come after you figure out a cat's purpose in cathood, or one of the trillions of other sentient being's purposes in their own existence. People tend to gloss over these as they are "unknowable" but that's the point. If you can't discuss ideas with what you are seeking a purpose in you won't find their purpose. You at best will guess purposes you make up for them. Observation of other species gives behavioral information, it does not inform people of what goes on inside the species head. The universe is a lot bigger to tackle than another sentient life so spend your time on one of those. My statement of be comforted in the fact that human's have a purpose is because that's the only purpose you have a high chance of interpreting. Until humans become capable of communicating with things besides themselves.

I refuse to accept that the term unknowable is in any way an accurate term. Since many unknowable things have been learned once humans surpassed the limitations previously applied to themselves.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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24-04-2011, 03:17 PM
RE: Who Created the Creator?
You're giving me brain damage. I don't think the 'who created the creathor' argument is a good one anymore.

I don't think it's likely that the possible creator could be a personal, theistic, creator, because personality and our kind of consciousness are biological features.
But what is the difference between just some thing that accidentally the universe, and the creator that you're thinking about? The creator has a consciousness, is self-aware and created the universe for a purpose? Because if the creator isn't a being, but rather like an unconscious non-self-aware thing that just behaves like it does without a mind, could we still call it a creator, although it has no god-like properties?

Correct me when I'm wrong.
Accept me or go to hell.
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