Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
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29-09-2017, 05:08 PM
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
Family, neighbors, friends. We all went to the same Catholic church. I was in boy scouts all our meetings were at my Church. I didn't know anything else outside the catholic church was an option. When ever I heared about another religion outside my own I just assumed they believed the same things I did, just chose to celebrate in a slightly different way. I wasn't till I got to college that I found those thoughts to be wrong. And after college that I found out I was REALLY REALLY wrong.

My family would pray before dinner, or before we would go to sleep. We went most Sundays to church. My mother was the driving force. My father believed but never talked about it or seem to care enough about it. But if we didn't pray he would get very cross and send us to our rooms without dinner. He was Pentecostal. My mother roman catholic who did most if not all of our religious up bringing.. All my neighbors who had children that I was friends with, tought my CCD (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine) class. Which I was told was our ticket into heaven. Even if we left the faith so long as we made it threw and accepted Jesus into our lives we would be welcomed into heaven.

I hated going to church depending how guilty my mother was feeling (or how tiered) determined if we went on Sunday or not. Or late Saturday night. And defently Easter, Palm Sunday, and Christmas 2 hour catholic masses. When I finished my confirmation my mother said I could choose to go to church on my own or not. I never went back. Feeling that I had a friend in God and Jesus to be allowed into heaven. And didn't need church to get me in.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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29-09-2017, 06:13 PM
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
The proximal cause of my conversion, a couple of months shy of my 6th birthday, was an after-school Bible study program called a "good news club". I was told that I was a sinner and separated from god, but that this was readily fixable by simply accepting his free gift of salvation. That seemed to my not fully developed brain like a very straightforward proposition.

The context is that our entire family (parents and three older brothers) preceded me in this. I no longer remember how aware I was of this but there was definitely momentum that likely influenced me. My oldest brother, then in his early 20s, had gotten his act together after a worrisome spate of binge drinking and related misbehavior and credited a local church with his transformation. This made the rest of us open to learning more.

From there, we were very involved and faithful church members and it was just a culture we were immersed in.

So there was no "one" person who "indoctrinated" me and I certainly played a willing role. I do not particularly think of myself as the victim in this, although I suppose there was a sense in which I was too unsophisticated to withstand the charm offensive.
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29-09-2017, 06:14 PM
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
(29-09-2017 02:46 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 12:51 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  After hearing stories of miracles or direct intervention in church, she asks why that stuff doesn't happen anymore. Santa and God are pretty much the same, and she can see a lot of it. She accepted it because it's what her mother told her when she was very young.
I don't know how well-developed this is in other denominations but my fundamentalist sect had a constant refrain of "miracles are not for today". The chain of rationalizations went something like this:

1) Faith is better than sight
2) Back then, they didn't have the whole Bible like we do, so the message of the apostles needed to be "authenticated" with miracles
3) Now we have the Bible and simply have to have faith in what it says, therefore
4) Miracles ended when the canon of scripture was "closed" (finalized).

This doesn't explain how right after the Council of Nicea people didn't suddenly have a Bible delivered to their homes, so that it scarcely mattered that the "canon of scripture was closed", then, or really for the next 1500 years really. Not until the printing press made published books cheap and people were both affluent and literate enough to be able to make use of them.

Also there's no real scriptural support for this, in the form of a verse that literally says, "behold, I send you miracles to validate those who speak for me until my New Testament is entirely written and collected, says the Lord; in that day there shall be no more miracles, for you shall have the sincere milk of my Word." Similar to a lot of concocted dogma -- the age of accountability, or the notion that human life begins at birth -- it is not really taught in scripture, only inferred, often very indirectly and with questionable reasoning. "Miracles are not for today" is just another teaching the need for which arises because of the need to address a logical conundrum that scripture is explicitly silent on.

That's interesting, I was in a Pentecostal sect and miracles were definitely for today, all you had to do was ask god and the magic genie would deliver.

Of course it didn't take me too long to figure out that the magic genie only delivered if you looked at everything with extreme confirmation bias.

If you wanted something that was verifiable and falsifiable; like healing from scoliosis, nah, all you got were the litany of apologetic excuses.

Their claims were too bold and they were ridiculous, any person with just a little bit of rationality would question such a fantasy version of reality, but there were a troubling amount of people that never did call BS on their counterfeit reality, but it eventually caused me to hit the eject button.

To answer the OP, I was in it from the time I was born, I never knew there was another way to look at the world except through the prism of fundamentalist nuttery, but reality can get through, it just takes questioning and a refusal to be satisfied with the pat answers that always seemed like they were partially right, but not satisfying to a genuinely curious mind.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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29-09-2017, 06:26 PM
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
(29-09-2017 06:14 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 02:46 PM)mordant Wrote:  I don't know how well-developed this is in other denominations but my fundamentalist sect had a constant refrain of "miracles are not for today". The chain of rationalizations went something like this:

1) Faith is better than sight
2) Back then, they didn't have the whole Bible like we do, so the message of the apostles needed to be "authenticated" with miracles
3) Now we have the Bible and simply have to have faith in what it says, therefore
4) Miracles ended when the canon of scripture was "closed" (finalized).

That's interesting, I was in a Pentecostal sect and miracles were definitely for today, all you had to do was ask god and the magic genie would deliver.
The teaching I mentioned was most often presented as an anti-charismatic / pentecostal teaching, usually referred to euphemistically as "emotionalism". I think they regarded your sect as an "extreme" to be avoided, and, at a visceral level, as in extremely bad taste.

I attended Grand Rapids School of Bible and Music and like a lot of students I attended its founding church, Calvary Bible Church in Grand Rapids. It was a fairly large and influential congregation, and I recall that one Sunday a deranged pentecostal woman wandered into the service and sat in the back pew making strange gestures and talking to herself. Eventually she started shouting out various exclamations in response to the pastor's sermon, similar to how things normally go down in many African-American churches, but with an overlay of whatever mental illness she had, probably schizophrenia. But the exclamations were not really connected to what was being preached. One of them was "INDIVIDUAL SOULS!!!". This one was particularly loud. The pastor paused, and said to the ushers, "please remove the nice lady" and she was escorted out of the building, bellowing all the way, "INDIVIDUAL SOULS!!!"

My fellow students and I, for weeks after, would crack ourselves up by shouting at random times, "INDIVIDUAL SOULS!!"

I guess this was the sort of thing our teachers were wanting to avoid when they cautioned against "emotionalism" and, when they were of a mind to be more nuanced, the dangers of putting too much stock in personal subjective experiences generally. That lady was probably their worst nightmare.
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29-09-2017, 06:41 PM
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
Mom was raised Methodist and dad Roman Catholic (which doesn't mean he was Roman and Catholic, in fact, he was German). In order to be married by a priest mom had to agree any children would be raised in the Catholic church. I started at about age five with catechism classes and was about six when I took first communion. Just before 6th grade we moved to dad's home town and I began attending Catholic school through high school graduation.

About the only thing I remember mom saying about religion is that she hated Catholics. Dad was either busy with college and later work or Sunday morning golf to even make sure I made it to Sunday mass. A bit of a challenge since one of my Monday assignments in 6th grade was to write a paragraph on the homily which meant I had to call a friend. Undecided

None of it took though I was surrounded by Catholics...mostly of German background but some of Irish background...since it's the same kind of Catholic. A few miles west and there were more Irish than German but still Catholic.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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29-09-2017, 07:05 PM
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
(29-09-2017 06:41 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Mom was raised Methodist and dad Roman Catholic (which doesn't mean he was Roman and Catholic, in fact, he was German). In order to be married by a priest mom had to agree any children would be raised in the Catholic church. I started at about age five with catechism classes and was about six when I took first communion. Just before 6th grade we moved to dad's home town and I began attending Catholic school through high school graduation.

About the only thing I remember mom saying about religion is that she hated Catholics. Dad was either busy with college and later work or Sunday morning golf to even make sure I made it to Sunday mass. A bit of a challenge since one of my Monday assignments in 6th grade was to write a paragraph on the homily which meant I had to call a friend. Undecided

None of it took though I was surrounded by Catholics...mostly of German background but some of Irish background...since it's the same kind of Catholic. A few miles west and there were more Irish than German but still Catholic.

I use the term "Irish Catholic" because that's what my family uses as a descriptor. I also had many Irish Catholic friends in the Boston area who also called themselves Irish Catholic, so I'm not really sure if it's a regional thing?

Anyway, yes all Catholics are Catholic. However, my understanding is the term "Irish Catholic" came out of Ireland when there was a falling out between the Protestant and Catholic churches and that's why Irish Catholics refer/referred to themselves as such. I think it just became part of some families using it as a descriptor when Irish people migrated to America. In some families, it just carried on through next generations, with some using the term as tradition or because it's what their parent's used or what not.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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29-09-2017, 09:43 PM
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
My parents. Only I made it out. Sadcryface

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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29-09-2017, 09:52 PM
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
(29-09-2017 06:41 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Mom was raised Methodist and dad Roman Catholic (which doesn't mean he was Roman and Catholic, in fact, he was German). In order to be married by a priest mom had to agree any children would be raised in the Catholic church.

That's interesting. My mom was Catholic (German stock) and my dad was/is, Methodist. They literally eloped and came to Texas to get married (leaving Tennessee and Ky) because neither family was okay with it. Growing up, we had to go to church...the Methodist one; dad was an usher, and mom...stayed home. Peculiar. But I can't say it had any influence on me later becoming an atheist, though looking back it seems it should have...

Notice in both cases dad got his preference.

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29-09-2017, 10:03 PM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2017 10:09 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
(29-09-2017 09:43 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  My parents. Only I made it out. Sadcryface

Same here in terms of my siblings-they all still believe. *hugs* to you.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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29-09-2017, 10:36 PM
RE: Who Indoctrinated You Into Religion?
(29-09-2017 09:52 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 06:41 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Mom was raised Methodist and dad Roman Catholic (which doesn't mean he was Roman and Catholic, in fact, he was German). In order to be married by a priest mom had to agree any children would be raised in the Catholic church.

That's interesting. My mom was Catholic (German stock) and my dad was/is, Methodist. They literally eloped and came to Texas to get married (leaving Tennessee and Ky) because neither family was okay with it. Growing up, we had to go to church...the Methodist one; dad was an usher, and mom...stayed home. Peculiar. But I can't say it had any influence on me later becoming an atheist, though looking back it seems it should have...

Notice in both cases dad got his preference.

My dad got his preference because it was the only way the priest would marry them. Eloping would have made dad AWOL and mom would have missed a day of school...she was 16.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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