Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
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29-12-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 05:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 05:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  How does one tell a prophet from a medium or fortuneteller? Do prophets have a membership in the Prophets' Guild? A secret decoder ring? A halo?

Your answer is "it's magic" and oddly enough we don't believe you.
When your answer is that, you have abandoned reason.
For some reason my sarcasm meter just spiked...strange. I know you think it is all hocus pocus. But to answer your question about "How can we tell the difference?" The bible gives specific instructions on how to identify false prophets.

Jesus warned us that “false Christs and false prophets” will come and will attempt to deceive even God’s elect (Matthew 24:23-27; see also 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18). The best way to guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers is to know the truth. To spot a counterfeit, study the real thing. Any believer who “correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and who makes a careful study of the Bible can identify false doctrine. For example, a believer who has read the activities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 3:16-17 will immediately question any doctrine that denies the Trinity. Therefore, step one is to study the Bible and judge all teaching by what the Scripture says.

Jesus said “a tree is recognized by its fruit” (Matthew 12:33). When looking for “fruit,” here are three specific tests to apply to any teacher to determine the accuracy of his or her teaching:

1) What does this teacher say about Jesus? In Matthew 16:15-16, Jesus asks, “Who do you say I am?” Peter answers, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” and for this answer Peter is called “blessed.” In 2 John 9, we read, “Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.” In other words, Jesus Christ and His work of redemption is of utmost importance; beware of anyone who denies that Jesus is equal with God, who downplays Jesus’ sacrificial death, or who rejects Jesus’ humanity. First John 2:22 says, “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.”

2) Does this teacher preach the gospel? The gospel is defined as the good news concerning Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection, according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). As nice as they sound, the statements “God loves you,” “God wants us to feed the hungry,” and “God wants you to be wealthy” are not the complete message of the gospel. As Paul warns in Galatians 1:7, “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” No one, not even a great preacher, has the right to change the message that God gave us. “If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:9).

3) Does this teacher exhibit character qualities that glorify the Lord? Speaking of false teachers, Jude 11 says, “They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.” In other words, a false teacher can be known by his pride (Cain’s rejection of God’s plan), greed (Balaam’s prophesying for money), and rebellion (Korah’s promotion of himself over Moses). Jesus said to beware of such people and that we would know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20).

For further study, review those books of the Bible that were written specifically to combat false teaching within the church: Galatians, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. It is often difficult to spot a false teacher/false prophet. Satan masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), and his ministers masquerade as servants of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15). Only by being thoroughly familiar with the truth will we be able to recognize a counterfeit.

As I stated earlier. I am not expecting you to believe the bible. I am only giving you this information to answer your question on how Christians can tell the difference between a real prophetic omens and that from false prophets.

"I know you think it is all hocus pocus."

That's right. Actually, we know it is all hocus pocus.

"I am only giving you this information to answer your question on how Christians can tell the difference between a real prophetic omens and that from false prophets."

That's very patronising of you. And it's bullshit. Paul claimed:

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2; 16, KJV) and

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Gal. 3:13, KJV) and

“Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)

BUT...Jeebus allegedly said,

“Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish them but complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved” (Matt. 5:17–18 JB.)

Paul and Jesus contradicted each other! Which one is your false prophet...Paul or Jeebus?
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29-12-2015, 06:06 PM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2015 06:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 05:04 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  That is not entirely true and here is why. An omen is a sign that precedes an event. Natural phenomena, strange birth defects, or animals acting in unexplainable ways are all commonly seen as omens. Omens can be good or evil, that is, they can foretell a good, positive event or an evil, harmful one. The superstitious might consider finding a heads-up penny a good omen but see a black cat crossing their path as a bad omen.

Actually the POINT about prophecy is entirely true. The role of a "prophet" was to act as an advisor, and a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day. It was NOT to tell the future. The interpretation of 'secret meanings' in the writings of prophets arose in the Apocalyptic period. The business about "prophecy as prediction" is one of the HUGE disagreements between academic Biblical scholars and Fundamentalists. No one in the mainline centers of scholarship buys into the "prediction" nonsense. In fact it's one of the first things Bible 101 teaches. The "sign" promised by Isaiah to Israel of the King's wife being with child, was for THAT time, not a "prophecy" of Jesus.

The ancient role of a prophet in Hebrew culture was to interpret the words or will of their god to the people OF THEIR OWN DAY. NOT to predict the future. (That's Hollywood's idea of the role of a prophet). You often hear fundies talking about "prophesy", and how various prophesies were a 'foretelling", or prediction of the future, and indeed they count them up as "proof" that Jesus or whatever HAS to be true, as the "prophecy" came true. In fact Leviticus forbade fortune telling and divination, so we know it was an abomination to even think in these terms for many/most centuries in Hebrew culture. However, with the rise of Apocalypticism, around the turn of the millennium, this changed somewhat, and is evidenced in many Christian writings, including the gospels, as they adopted the notions absent in ancient Israel, but coming into popular view with the Essenes. In terms of Hebrew culture, and the "telling of or prediction of" the future, was unknown, and forbidden, and not at ALL a view of the major prophets themselves. However in the the new view, certain "hidden meanings" or "pesherim" began to be looked for, in the practice of Midrash. The name for this is called "pesher", (or seeking a "hidden meaning"), which was not even known to the original speaker/writer, but only "revealed" later to certain believers. Originally, the (plural) "pesherim" were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness, (the leader of the Essenes), and the idea was first found and fully understood after scholars read the Dead Sea scrolls, and was a sub category of "Midrash", (or study of the texts).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...15650.html
"Prophesy" as fortune telling as began to be practiced in Judaism around the First Century, (and picked up by Christians and the gospel writers), really was a very late invention and never a classical part of Hebrew scripture, or understanding, either interpretation, or intention, and certainly was not the function of the ancient office of "prophet", in Hebrew culture, who was to be a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day, and not Madame Zelda with her crystal ball.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/r...html#proof

"Prophecies" (used as omens), also have to be "interpreted" (and originally were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness"). The misunderstanding is one of the most common and often made mistakes about Hebrew culture, made by non-scholars.

(29-12-2015 05:04 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Signs sometimes occurred in the Bible in association with prophecies from God. Isaiah the prophet said that he and his children were “signs and symbols” to Israel (Isaiah 8:18).

Exactly. Advice to the people OF HIS OWN TIME. That much is correct. Signs about the FAR FUTURE are "omens" and not what prophets did.

(29-12-2015 05:04 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Another example of a sign or “omen” happened before the exodus. God sent Moses to Pharaoh with a sign: when Moses threw his staff down, God turned it into a serpent. This miracle was specifically designed to convince those who did not believe (Exodus 4:1–5). The presence of a snake in the royal court should also have been a sign to Pharaoh of the plagues to come, but he failed to heed the omen. Another person who tragically failed to heed a divine omen was Pontius Pilate. During Jesus’ trial, Pilate’s wife sent him an urgent message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him” (Matthew 27:19).

First of all, there never was an Exodus. It's been debunked by archaeology Totally. See below. And again, if this ever happened, it was still a sign to that time. And you do know the Pharaoh had magicians who did the same "trick". They had snakes up their sleeves. It was a common magician thing done then.

(29-12-2015 05:04 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Thus, an omen given by God through a prophet is not forbidden because it is the will of God. Omens given through mediums and fortune tellers is forbidden because they do not come from God but through demons. I don't expect you to believe any of this but it will explain why Christians don't believe biblical prophecy is applied in Deuteronomy.


I don't. But not for that reason. The reason I don't, is that Biblical scholars (mainline REAL ones as in the Ivy League schools) don't believe it either, as it's basically a complete misunderstanding of the role of a prophet in ancient Israel. If you're saying a natural event can be seen (as pointed out by a "prophet" to be their god *speaking to them*) AT THAT time, then I agree, that can be what they were, and that is in accordance with Biblical scholarship. It's an interpretation of a natural event, that *can* be interpreted by a believer, and not interpreted that way by a non-believer, seeing the very same event.

So I stand squarely with mainline scholarship in saying that the way this JW person uses "signs" IS *omen reading* and exactly what was forbidden in Deuteronomy, and totally out of synch with Biblical Hebrew custom and thought.

No Exodus :



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-12-2015, 06:07 PM
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 05:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 05:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  How does one tell a prophet from a medium or fortuneteller? Do prophets have a membership in the Prophets' Guild? A secret decoder ring? A halo?

Your answer is "it's magic" and oddly enough we don't believe you.
When your answer is that, you have abandoned reason.
For some reason my sarcasm meter just spiked...strange. I know you think it is all hocus pocus. But to answer your question about "How can we tell the difference?" The bible gives specific instructions on how to identify false prophets.

Jesus warned us that “false Christs and false prophets” will come and will attempt to deceive even God’s elect (Matthew 24:23-27; see also 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18). The best way to guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers is to know the truth. To spot a counterfeit, study the real thing. Any believer who “correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and who makes a careful study of the Bible can identify false doctrine. For example, a believer who has read the activities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 3:16-17 will immediately question any doctrine that denies the Trinity. Therefore, step one is to study the Bible and judge all teaching by what the Scripture says.

Jesus said “a tree is recognized by its fruit” (Matthew 12:33). When looking for “fruit,” here are three specific tests to apply to any teacher to determine the accuracy of his or her teaching:

1) What does this teacher say about Jesus? In Matthew 16:15-16, Jesus asks, “Who do you say I am?” Peter answers, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” and for this answer Peter is called “blessed.” In 2 John 9, we read, “Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.” In other words, Jesus Christ and His work of redemption is of utmost importance; beware of anyone who denies that Jesus is equal with God, who downplays Jesus’ sacrificial death, or who rejects Jesus’ humanity. First John 2:22 says, “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.”

2) Does this teacher preach the gospel? The gospel is defined as the good news concerning Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection, according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). As nice as they sound, the statements “God loves you,” “God wants us to feed the hungry,” and “God wants you to be wealthy” are not the complete message of the gospel. As Paul warns in Galatians 1:7, “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” No one, not even a great preacher, has the right to change the message that God gave us. “If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:9).

3) Does this teacher exhibit character qualities that glorify the Lord? Speaking of false teachers, Jude 11 says, “They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.” In other words, a false teacher can be known by his pride (Cain’s rejection of God’s plan), greed (Balaam’s prophesying for money), and rebellion (Korah’s promotion of himself over Moses). Jesus said to beware of such people and that we would know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20).

For further study, review those books of the Bible that were written specifically to combat false teaching within the church: Galatians, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. It is often difficult to spot a false teacher/false prophet. Satan masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), and his ministers masquerade as servants of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15). Only by being thoroughly familiar with the truth will we be able to recognize a counterfeit.

As I stated earlier. I am not expecting you to believe the bible. I am only giving you this information to answer your question on how Christians can tell the difference between a real prophetic omens and that from false prophets.

The best way to guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers is to know the truth.

Agreed.

"To spot a counterfeit, study the real thing. Any believer who “correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and who makes a careful study of the Bible can identify false doctrine."

One teeny weeny problem with your over simplistic assessment of the way things are. You are assuming the babble tells the truth. It does not. The babble is riddled with lies. It is also internally inconsistent. SmartassDrinking Beverage
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29-12-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 05:35 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 05:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  For some reason my sarcasm meter just spiked...strange. I know you think it is all hocus pocus. But to answer your question about "How can we tell the difference?" The bible gives specific instructions on how to identify false prophets.

Jesus warned us that “false Christs and false prophets” will come and will attempt to deceive even God’s elect (Matthew 24:23-27; see also 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18). The best way to guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers is to know the truth. To spot a counterfeit, study the real thing. Any believer who “correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and who makes a careful study of the Bible can identify false doctrine. For example, a believer who has read the activities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 3:16-17 will immediately question any doctrine that denies the Trinity. Therefore, step one is to study the Bible and judge all teaching by what the Scripture says.

Jesus said “a tree is recognized by its fruit” (Matthew 12:33). When looking for “fruit,” here are three specific tests to apply to any teacher to determine the accuracy of his or her teaching:

1) What does this teacher say about Jesus? In Matthew 16:15-16, Jesus asks, “Who do you say I am?” Peter answers, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” and for this answer Peter is called “blessed.” In 2 John 9, we read, “Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.” In other words, Jesus Christ and His work of redemption is of utmost importance; beware of anyone who denies that Jesus is equal with God, who downplays Jesus’ sacrificial death, or who rejects Jesus’ humanity. First John 2:22 says, “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.”

2) Does this teacher preach the gospel? The gospel is defined as the good news concerning Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection, according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). As nice as they sound, the statements “God loves you,” “God wants us to feed the hungry,” and “God wants you to be wealthy” are not the complete message of the gospel. As Paul warns in Galatians 1:7, “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” No one, not even a great preacher, has the right to change the message that God gave us. “If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:9).

3) Does this teacher exhibit character qualities that glorify the Lord? Speaking of false teachers, Jude 11 says, “They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.” In other words, a false teacher can be known by his pride (Cain’s rejection of God’s plan), greed (Balaam’s prophesying for money), and rebellion (Korah’s promotion of himself over Moses). Jesus said to beware of such people and that we would know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20).

For further study, review those books of the Bible that were written specifically to combat false teaching within the church: Galatians, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. It is often difficult to spot a false teacher/false prophet. Satan masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), and his ministers masquerade as servants of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15). Only by being thoroughly familiar with the truth will we be able to recognize a counterfeit.

As I stated earlier. I am not expecting you to believe the bible. I am only giving you this information to answer your question on how Christians can tell the difference between a real prophetic omens and that from false prophets.

"Any believer who... makes a careful study of the Bible can identify false doctrine."

You hit the nail on the head there, juniorBig Grin
There goes my sarcasm meter again ...it must be broken.
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29-12-2015, 06:12 PM
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 05:56 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 05:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The best way to guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers is to know the truth.

Identifying truth requires demonstrable evidence. All else is opinion.

Quote:To spot a counterfeit, study the real thing. Any believer who “correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and who makes a careful study of the Bible can identify false doctrine.

If you assume that the bible is "the real thing" then you can identify false doctrine by comparing claims against the bible.
If you assume that the koran is "the real thing" then you can identify false doctrine by comparing claims against the koran.
If you assume that the bhagavad gita is "the real thing" then you can identify false doctrine by comparing claims against the bhagavad gita.
If you assume that the book of mormon is "the real thing" then you can identify false doctrine by comparing claims against the book of mormon.
...

Quote:I am not expecting you to believe the bible. I am only giving you this information to answer your question on how Christians can tell the difference between a real prophetic omens and that from false prophets.

That sounds good until you look at the thousands of Christian denominations with fairly significant doctrinal differences. They are reading the same book but coming away with different interpretations because the book is not at all clear in many areas and downright contradictory in others. Basically it boils down to every person applying their own criteria to distinguish true from false; as I said, it is opinion because there is no good evidence for any of it.
Does the fact that you don't believe the bible change the fact that Christians use the bible to identify false prophets who wave the banner of Christianity? Like I said, the information provided was to explain how Christians are taught to identify false prophets. That was all.
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29-12-2015, 06:13 PM
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 05:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Paul and Jesus contradicted each other! Which one is your false prophet...Paul or Jeebus?
Well said but of course there's always a tap dance. Jesus came to complete the law, now the law is satisfied and we're free of it, is how it's usually couched. Jesus was speaking before he accomplished the fulfillment, Paul was speaking after.

This same principle is how fundamentalists can selectively reject the parts of the OT they dislike or find inconvenient and embrace and cite the bits that they like. Mixed fabrics? Yes. Homosexuality? No.

The real problem is that the Bible is a funhouse hall of mirrors which means whatever you want it to mean. And many people will accept any interpretation of it that makes them subjectively feel good or gives them access to some half-assed sense of community and validation. And especially if it just tells them what to do, without them having to do any heavy lifting.
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29-12-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 05:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Paul and Jesus contradicted each other! Which one is your false prophet...Paul or Jeebus?

Neither.
The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).

In place of the Old Testament law, Christians are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshipping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24). The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.
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29-12-2015, 06:39 PM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2015 06:55 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 06:23 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 05:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Paul and Jesus contradicted each other! Which one is your false prophet...Paul or Jeebus?

Neither.
The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).

In place of the Old Testament law, Christians are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshipping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24). The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.

You don't understand the real history.

"When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15)."


No no no. This idea was invented by Paul (consider who you are quoting.) The (probable) real Jesus died because he was opposed to the Gentile (ie proto Christian) world. He was knocked off by Romans, not for Romans. Read that again.
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29-12-2015, 06:39 PM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2015 06:59 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 06:12 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Does the fact that you don't believe the bible change the fact that Christians use the bible to identify false prophets who wave the banner of Christianity? Like I said, the information provided was to explain how Christians are taught to identify false prophets. That was all.

I understood that, but saying that you are just explaining it when you believe it as well has a bit of a hollow ring to it. I really do get that you are here to learn about atheists and not to promote or even defend your beliefs and that's fine. To that end we are still going to respond to any statements about why theists believe what they do by explaining why we don't think they are on solid ground.

I'm not expecting you to defend it since you've made it clear that you aren't here for that. I do hope it helps you understand atheists better and that you will mull over the points raised. I also hope that other lurkers will see and begin to understand why we don't accept the claims of believers at face value.

I know that Christians use the bible to identify all sorts of things. What I don't understand is why they think any of it is authoritative or why they seem to ignore the fact that they are picking and choosing the parts they want to follow. They seem to start with the belief and then go looking for confirmation while ignoring anything contradictory. I could not live that way.

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29-12-2015, 06:43 PM
RE: Who Is God? Why Does He Allow Suffering? And When Will It End?
(29-12-2015 05:27 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(29-12-2015 05:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  How does one tell a prophet from a medium or fortuneteller? Do prophets have a membership in the Prophets' Guild? A secret decoder ring? A halo?

Your answer is "it's magic" and oddly enough we don't believe you.
When your answer is that, you have abandoned reason.
For some reason my sarcasm meter just spiked...strange. I know you think it is all hocus pocus. But to answer your question about "How can we tell the difference?" The bible gives specific instructions on how to identify false prophets.

Jesus warned us that “false Christs and false prophets” will come and will attempt to deceive even God’s elect (Matthew 24:23-27; see also 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18). The best way to guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers is to know the truth. To spot a counterfeit, study the real thing. Any believer who “correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and who makes a careful study of the Bible can identify false doctrine. For example, a believer who has read the activities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 3:16-17 will immediately question any doctrine that denies the Trinity. Therefore, step one is to study the Bible and judge all teaching by what the Scripture says.

Circular argument and presupposition. It assumes one knows some real prophets to compare to.

Quote:Jesus said “a tree is recognized by its fruit” (Matthew 12:33). When looking for “fruit,” here are three specific tests to apply to any teacher to determine the accuracy of his or her teaching:

1) What does this teacher say about Jesus? In Matthew 16:15-16, Jesus asks, “Who do you say I am?” Peter answers, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,” and for this answer Peter is called “blessed.” In 2 John 9, we read, “Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.” In other words, Jesus Christ and His work of redemption is of utmost importance; beware of anyone who denies that Jesus is equal with God, who downplays Jesus’ sacrificial death, or who rejects Jesus’ humanity. First John 2:22 says, “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.”

2) Does this teacher preach the gospel? The gospel is defined as the good news concerning Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection, according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). As nice as they sound, the statements “God loves you,” “God wants us to feed the hungry,” and “God wants you to be wealthy” are not the complete message of the gospel. As Paul warns in Galatians 1:7, “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.” No one, not even a great preacher, has the right to change the message that God gave us. “If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:9).

3) Does this teacher exhibit character qualities that glorify the Lord? Speaking of false teachers, Jude 11 says, “They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.” In other words, a false teacher can be known by his pride (Cain’s rejection of God’s plan), greed (Balaam’s prophesying for money), and rebellion (Korah’s promotion of himself over Moses). Jesus said to beware of such people and that we would know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20).

None of that separates a prophet from a religious person.

Quote:For further study, review those books of the Bible that were written specifically to combat false teaching within the church: Galatians, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. It is often difficult to spot a false teacher/false prophet. Satan masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), and his ministers masquerade as servants of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15). Only by being thoroughly familiar with the truth will we be able to recognize a counterfeit.

Presupposes that the Bible is The Truth™.

Quote:As I stated earlier. I am not expecting you to believe the bible. I am only giving you this information to answer your question on how Christians can tell the difference between a real prophetic omens and that from false prophets.

You failed to do so. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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