Who created God? (creation.com)
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20-10-2012, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2012 01:29 PM by Vosur.)
Who created God? (creation.com)
http://creation.com/who-created-god

I wonder how much thought the author of this article gave it. He, much like other theists (WLC especially), seems to be unable to grasp the definition of atheism. They stomp their feet and insist that in order to be an atheist, you have to believe X about Y. As a matter of fact, atheism has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe, merely with the existence of (supernatural) deities, aka gods. That being said, there is no reason why an atheist shouldn't be able to believe that the universe had a cause. It's a whole different story what this cause actually is. The author is (logically) correct in arguing that if god didn't have a beginning then he wouldn't need a cause. However, much like everyone else before him, the author of this article fails to demonstrate how arguing for an 'uncaused cause' is not special pleading and furthermore does not explain why this cause has to be a sentient being, let alone one that has any interest in the human race.

Other than that, the author makes two false assertions. Firstly, a deistic god does not have to be omnipotent, instead he only requires enough power to create this universe. Omnipotence would allow him to create an infinite amount of universes, which is not a requirement if he only wants to create a single universe. Secondly, a deistic god does not have to be omniscient. Creating the universe does not require knowledge about anything but how to create a universe.

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20-10-2012, 12:49 PM
RE: Who created God? (creation.com)
What I want to know is which country in Europe has buses on which it's printed "There's probably no God". I'd move there in a heartbeat. You see, I need an excuse for my wickedness, preferably - one printed on public transport vehicles...

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20-10-2012, 02:06 PM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2012 02:22 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who created God? (creation.com)
(20-10-2012 12:27 PM)Vosur Wrote:  http://creation.com/who-created-god

I wonder how much thought the author of this article gave it. He, much like other theists (WLC especially), seems to be unable to grasp the definition of atheism. They stomp their feet and insist that in order to be an atheist, you have to believe X about Y. As a matter of fact, atheism has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe, merely with the existence of (supernatural) deities, aka gods. That being said, there is no reason why an atheist shouldn't be able to believe that the universe had a cause. It's a whole different story what this cause actually is. The author is (logically) correct in arguing that if god didn't have a beginning then he wouldn't need a cause. However, much like everyone else before him, the author of this article fails to demonstrate how arguing for an 'uncaused cause' is not special pleading and furthermore does not explain why this cause has to be a sentient being, let alone one that has any interest in the human race.

Other than that, the author makes two false assertions. Firstly, a deistic god does not have to be omnipotent, instead he only requires enough power to create this universe. Omnipotence would allow him to create an infinite amount of universes, which is not a requirement if he only wants to create a single universe. Secondly, a deistic god does not have to be omniscient. Creating the universe does not require knowledge about anything but how to create a universe.



This is laughable. He sets up his own arbitrary criteria, and then "finds" his god in the Bible. Hmm. My. What a coincidence. Weeping

I replied, he won't publish it I bet.

The question is NOT what caused the universe ? That's the least of their problems. The question is "What caused Causality, and *how* could THAT happen if "causality" were not already in place". Causality presumes, IN PLACE, a priori, ...absolute linear time., both for the act, and the intention, (and actually for the "potentiality".) It's all Special Plead away, EVEN while (pretending) maintaining the integrity for the structure of the argument, (Logic). Why even start the argument , "all things need a cause" if you KNEW you were going to exempt your god from Logic. Its an "Argument Made In Bad Faith".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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20-10-2012, 02:28 PM
Re: Who created God? (creation.com)
I think it was Satan.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-10-2012, 05:00 PM
RE: Who created God? (creation.com)
I completely forgot Carl Sagan's take on this. A brilliant response.



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20-10-2012, 07:16 PM
RE: Who created God? (creation.com)
I personally am in real life more about community and support for atheists.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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20-10-2012, 07:50 PM
RE: Who created God? (creation.com)
(20-10-2012 12:49 PM)Vera Wrote:  What I want to know is which country in Europe has buses on which it's printed "There's probably no God". I'd move there in a heartbeat. You see, I need an excuse for my wickedness, preferably - one printed on public transport vehicles...

I fear what wickedness may arise when inspired by public transport.

But in full disclosure, I kind of get a chubby from wicked babes who display their power on Public Transport! Drooling

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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21-10-2012, 03:46 AM
RE: Who created God? (creation.com)
(20-10-2012 07:50 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(20-10-2012 12:49 PM)Vera Wrote:  What I want to know is which country in Europe has buses on which it's printed "There's probably no God". I'd move there in a heartbeat. You see, I need an excuse for my wickedness, preferably - one printed on public transport vehicles...

I fear what wickedness may arise when inspired by public transport.

But in full disclosure, I kind of get a chubby from wicked babes who display their power on Public Transport! Drooling

Especially on a bus in Rio; what with them often being very crowded (and hot!) and the drivers driving like crazy, sending you flying from one end of the bus to the other, there's no telling what might happen (esp. with all those gorgeous Brazilian guys - or girls, if that's more your thing - around)

Though I myself, as a good ex-Xian, prefer to keep my transgressions well hidden, while waving my penance and humility for all to see Wink

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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21-10-2012, 03:54 AM
RE: Who created God? (creation.com)
(20-10-2012 12:49 PM)Vera Wrote:  What I want to know is which country in Europe has buses on which it's printed "There's probably no God". I'd move there in a heartbeat. You see, I need an excuse for my wickedness, preferably - one printed on public transport vehicles...

No need to go to Europe where people smell funny and dump their chamber pots in the streets. I saw this on a bus in Seattle recently and I'm quite fine being one of the 1 in 4 crowd. Thumbsup
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21-10-2012, 04:49 AM
RE: Who created God? (creation.com)
Vosur,

This was a good posy. Thanks for the link.

The article "Who Created God?", by Don Batten is typical of the convoluted arguments presented from about every Christian Apologist I have ever seen. Batten begins by posting a straw-man atheist argument of "If God was the beginning who began God?” which really isn't an argument at all but a simple way of showing the absurdity of the Christian Viewpoint of our being able to know an absolute beginning. Like a squid spurting ink into the water, Batten starts out by obscuring the issue - and then he squirts even more ink.

Batten then goes on to use his scientific knowledge to further obscure the issue by vomiting up his child-like views of thermodynamics (big scientific and philosophical words impress xtians who just are insistent to believe).

Then, he discusses the Principle of Causality and missuses it to describe a physical phenomenon (the beginning of our universe) to which any principle of causality we may know of might not apply...and so on.

Them...Batten vomits this LuLu of a combination of convoluted Logic and Science where he tries to apply the rules of Logic and Science which govern our Universe - to potential Universes that are unknown....and whose workings (i.e., Logic and Science) may be unknowable. In short, he's used an unproven and unjustified premise to jump right to concluding the Supernatural exist!

[undefined=undefined]The cause of the universe must have been non-material because if the cause was material / natural, it would be subject to the same laws of decay as the universe. That means it would have to have had a beginning itself and you have the same problem as cycles of births and deaths of universes. So the cause of the universe’s beginning must have been super-natural, i.e. non-material or spirit—a cause outside of space-matter-time. Such a cause would not be subject to the law of decay and so would not have a beginning. That is, the cause had to be eternal spirit.
[/undefined]

And then he keeps going on...and on...and on....like a squid whose capacity to spurt ink is infinite.

For you, or me, or anyone here - or anyone I could think of - to refute this argument would take an effort 10x greater than what was needed to make the argument, for it is a lot easier and faster to take a dump and smear it on the wall than it is to clean it up. And this is technique that guys like Duane Gish and William Lane Craig and other apologists use in debates with Atheists.

Unfortunately, when the Apologists start spurting ink, the Atheists tend to want to clean up the mess - almost to a man (or woman) - and this is the big mistake that atheists make. For these arguments are designed such that they can not be cleaned up within the time alloted to rebuttal. Seriously - William Lane Craig uses the same ole' arguments every time he debates and these arguments - word for word - are published on the net. Yet...the Atheists debator - even when they know the exact argument before hand - just never have the time to clean up the mess. And...it's a big mistake they all make.

Instead, I would ignore the arguments completely for I recognize them as nothing but a screen of ink. I would ficus on the Supernatural or God and demand irrefutable scientific proof like - SHOW ME A MIRACLE...NOW! If this guy proclaims to know the Supernatural exist, then insist he show you a resurection, or someone walking on water, or an amputee's limb grown back, or the earth openiong up on command, or bread falling from the skies - or anything that is irrefutably "Super Natural" and just busts the laws of Causality, Physics, Chemistry and Biology as we know them. And I'd keep targeting this argument at the apologist with the ferocity and focus of a psychotic wolverine.

If these apologist can't show irrefutable evidence of the Supernatural - then all thier talk is just hot air.
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