Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
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15-05-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
(15-05-2013 03:10 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 02:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  The Allies dropped nearly 3,000,000 tons of bombs on Germany. 1000 tons on one city is not in the same league.

Now you have to be pretending just to save face.

Do you honestly believe I only used one example: Stalingrad because the germans only massively bombed ONE city? Fucking really Chas? The Germans massively bombed many cities in Russia.

Quote:Due to a lack of Strategic bombers - the very "Ural bombers" that General Wever had asked for six years before - the Luftwaffe could not strike at Soviet production centers regularly or with the needed force. As the war dragged on, the Luftwaffe was eroded in strength.

From wikipedia article.

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15-05-2013, 04:34 PM
RE: Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
(15-05-2013 03:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 03:10 PM)I and I Wrote:  Now you have to be pretending just to save face.

Do you honestly believe I only used one example: Stalingrad because the germans only massively bombed ONE city? Fucking really Chas? The Germans massively bombed many cities in Russia.

Quote:Due to a lack of Strategic bombers - the very "Ural bombers" that General Wever had asked for six years before - the Luftwaffe could not strike at Soviet production centers regularly or with the needed force. As the war dragged on, the Luftwaffe was eroded in strength.

From wikipedia article.

So german air force bombing the fuck out of russian cities doesn't count because it's not labeled "strategic bombing" What if it was called dirty sock bombing, would that mean a bombed out city is less affective? Again, you lied and now you are needing semantics to back pedal your way out.

You seem to think all the german airforce on the eastern front was just hanging around and not doing anything. Rolleyes They were bombing the fuck out of russia you know this, I know this. You don't need to save face.
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15-05-2013, 04:59 PM
RE: Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
(15-05-2013 04:34 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 03:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  From wikipedia article.

So german air force bombing the fuck out of russian cities doesn't count because it's not labeled "strategic bombing" What if it was called dirty sock bombing, would that mean a bombed out city is less affective? Again, you lied and now you are needing semantics to back pedal your way out.

You seem to think all the german airforce on the eastern front was just hanging around and not doing anything. Rolleyes They were bombing the fuck out of russia you know this, I know this. You don't need to save face.

I see, you will simply ignore the historical facts.

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15-05-2013, 05:17 PM
RE: Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
I can only find mention of Stalingrad and Leningrad being bombed to any significance by the Luftwaffe, Stalingrad being pretty much totalled, and Leningrad resulting in the killing of around 7,723 and wounding 20,507.
But that seems to be a total from Aerial bombing, artillery bombardment and any tank-borne shelling which may have occurred throughout the Siege.

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16-05-2013, 12:31 AM
RE: Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
(15-05-2013 05:17 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I can only find mention of Stalingrad and Leningrad being bombed to any significance by the Luftwaffe, Stalingrad being pretty much totalled, and Leningrad resulting in the killing of around 7,723 and wounding 20,507.
But that seems to be a total from Aerial bombing, artillery bombardment and any tank-borne shelling which may have occurred throughout the Siege.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational...st_1941-45 The german air force was amassed on the eastern front in major campaigns and in the beginning of the largest invasion ever in history they did tactically target and destroy many of the Soviet military targets.

The invasion of the Soviet Union was a 3 pronged attack using 1 million men in each prong. Thats a shit load of people to use for an invasion. Not counting the tanks and other weaponry used.
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16-05-2013, 12:36 AM
RE: Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
4,389 germain aircraft were used in Operation Barbarossa. Again, the overwhelming majority of germanys war machine was pitted against the Soviet Union and not england.
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16-05-2013, 07:29 AM
RE: Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
WWII started when Hitler invaded Poland after agreeing with Stalin to carve up Poland.

Thereafter, the Soviets quietly negotiated with the Nazis about how to split up the British Empire after the war.

From the fall of France until the Nazis attacked Russia, the UK was fighting all alone.

Conclusion: The UK gets most of the credit, even if Stalin wasted more of his own slaves to get Poland in the end.

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16-05-2013, 08:24 AM
Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
(16-05-2013 07:29 AM)Abdul Alhazred Wrote:  WWII started when Hitler invaded Poland after agreeing with Stalin to carve up Poland.

Thereafter, the Soviets quietly negotiated with the Nazis about how to split up the British Empire after the war.

From the fall of France until the Nazis attacked Russia, the UK was fighting all alone.

Conclusion: The UK gets most of the credit, even if Stalin wasted more of his own slaves to get Poland in the end.

3 million German soldiers invaded the Soviet Union. What was Germany doing to England that compares to that?
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16-05-2013, 09:43 AM
RE: Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
Because its's not about casualties.

The UK fought Hitler while Stalin was still on Hitler's side.

The fact that Stalin was willing to use up so many of his own people just to get his hands on Poland is not to his credit. Even if he "beat Hitler".

First he helped Hitler.

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16-05-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: Who defeated the Germans? The Soviet Union or the other allies?
(16-05-2013 09:43 AM)Abdul Alhazred Wrote:  Because its's not about casualties.

The UK fought Hitler while Stalin was still on Hitler's side.

The fact that Stalin was willing to use up so many of his own people just to get his hands on Poland is not to his credit. Even if he "beat Hitler".

First he helped Hitler.

Context, man. Context.

Hitler always planned to invade the east. Stalin and the rest of the Soviet leadership knew that. Anyone who read Mein Kampf knew that. The Soviets were public enemy #1 to the Nazi party on racial AND ideological grounds (they called it Judeo-Bolshevism, for fuck's sake, how much clearer a message could they send?).

The Soviets tried to put together an anti-Nazi coalition throughout the 1930s. Nobody gave them the time of day. The British and French demurred. The Italians demurred (though only after they realized the British and French weren't on board - the Italians were ready to fight the Anschluss!) and later switched sides. In Spain, the main fighting was between Nazi-backed and Soviet-backed factions.

Only after trying and failing to set up some sort of containment did Stalin and Molotov cut a deal with the Germans - which they knew would be temporary at best, given the stated, published, and avowed goal of the Nazi party was to enslave their country. It was purely buying time. Both sides knew it.

Actually, Stalin was figuring on a little more time - he thought the Germans wouldn't be foolish enough to open a two-front war (like the last time), which is the main reason the Soviets were caught so flat-footed in places come Barbarossa.
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