Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
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20-08-2010, 01:16 PM
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
(20-08-2010 12:49 PM)shiranl Wrote:  
(20-08-2010 12:39 PM)Kikko Wrote:  
Quote:I am sorry to disappoint you, but it wasn't sarcasm.
How is your country just a puppet show with Obama? I dont get it:/

Isn't it obvious? USA pays for our security, we buy security equipment from USA with the money they give us, so they have the right to do what ever they want with us.

Number one, I don't see how that works. That you buy security equipment from us doesn't give us the ability to control you.
Number two, whether or not we can control you doesn't matter. The question is if we do. What makes you think that we do?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-08-2010, 02:24 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2010 02:27 PM by shiranl.)
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
(20-08-2010 01:16 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(20-08-2010 12:49 PM)shiranl Wrote:  
(20-08-2010 12:39 PM)Kikko Wrote:  
Quote:I am sorry to disappoint you, but it wasn't sarcasm.
How is your country just a puppet show with Obama? I dont get it:/

Isn't it obvious? USA pays for our security, we buy security equipment from USA with the money they give us, so they have the right to do what ever they want with us.

Number one, I don't see how that works. That you buy security equipment from us doesn't give us the ability to control you.
Number two, whether or not we can control you doesn't matter. The question is if we do. What makes you think that we do?

1. If there is one thing that I have learned is that diplomacy is complecated. If you fund our security, we need to serve your interests. That how the world works.
2. Binyamin Netanyahu accepted "2 state for 2 peple" solution. If you know Bibi you know he will never accept such thing without any pressure, And who's pressures us?

Look, I don't want to fight about politics here- this is the only forum I wasn't judged by whom I am and from where I am, and I want to keep it like that. I just see the reality, I don't like it (I am sure you don't like it either), but this is what we've got.
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20-08-2010, 02:31 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2010 02:42 PM by BnW.)
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
The US does not in any way "control" Israel. if it did, settlements in the territories would have stopped over 10 years ago. However, the US has a tremendous amount of influence on Israel, and Israel does depend on the US for its continued survival. US foreign policy makes very,very clear that an attack on Israel will be responded to by the US. This is for several reasons, the two most prevalent being that Israel is the regions only democracy and we should support them and,while Jews are a small minority in the US, there are enough concentrations of them in key states to swing an election. Add to that the evangelical position of seeing Israel is the first line of defense against the Muslims (and this is not a new position since 9/11 btw) and you've got a US policy to support Israel almost no matter what.

Note that I said "almost". Support does not mean we blindly follow these people over a cliff.

Shiranl/Kikko - the hard cold reality here is that your country's position regarding the Palestinians is simply not sustainable. Given the relative birthrates of the Arabs vs. the Jews, it will not be long before Jews are a huge minority in their own country. A democracy, by definition, cannot survive where a majority of the population has no rights. The last country to try this was apartheid era South Africa, and Israel is rapidly becoming the moral equivalent of the Afrikaners. To a lot of the world, you already are. Think about this: you are losing the moral high grand to people who support terrorists and suicide bombers. And, Israel has not really been the physical aggressor, although I suppose continuing to build in Palestinian claimed territories is a form of physical aggression and provocation.

I'm not much of a fan or supporter of Obama but I think he is exactly right that Israel needs to start re-thinking how it manages this issue. They should put the 2000 peace deal back on the table and see if they can work a deal for a two state solution. There will obviously be elements within the Palestinian side that will never accept peace, but it will be much easier to marginalize those factions to the rest of the world if israel puts a peace deal, a real peace deal, on the table. If you continue to follow the policies of their current regime, you can't seriously expect the US to blindly follow you and take a position contrary to our own self interests. We have enough people trying to blow us up already.

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20-08-2010, 03:19 PM
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
Quote:The US does not in any way "control" Israel. if it did, settlements in the territories would have stopped over 10 years ago. However, the US has a tremendous amount of influence on Israel, and Israel does depend on the US for its continued survival. US foreign policy makes very,very clear that an attack on Israel will be responded to by the US. This is for several reasons, the two most prevalent being that Israel is the regions only democracy and we should support them and,while Jews are a small minority in the US, there are enough concentrations of them in key states to swing an election. Add to that the evangelical position of seeing Israel is the first line of defense against the Muslims (and this is not a new position since 9/11 btw) and you've got a US policy to support Israel almost no matter what.

Israel itself can't stop the settelments, because settlers are building it unauthorized. Israel does destroy it, but can't prevent it. So how the fuck the USA can control the settelments? And nevertheless, USA does try to put an end to it. Israel needs to act so we build trast in the USA, Palestinians and the entire world community. that is fine- and Israel had done it. there is freeze of 10 months (which actually already ended, but we still not building settlements). How about the Palestinians? they were never required from the USA nor from the rest of the Western world to do a trast building acts.
"US foreign policy makes very,very clear that an attack on Israel will be responded to by the US"- what about the attack of rocket shelling from the Gaza Strip by the Palestinians to Israeli cities for the last 9 years? does that was respond by the US? NO. In the minute Obama was incharge, which was during Cast Lead Operation, he demend from Israel to stop-although he knew very well it was our scream after 8 long years of silence about the rocket shelling.

Quote:Shiranl/Kikko - the hard cold reality here is that your country's position regarding the Palestinians is simply not sustainable. Given the relative birthrates of the Arabs vs. the Jews, it will not be long before Jews are a huge minority in their own country. A democracy, by definition, cannot survive where a majority of the population has no rights. The last country to try this was apartheid era South Africa, and Israel is rapidly becoming the moral equivalent of the Afrikaners. To a lot of the world, you already are. Think about this: you are losing the moral high grand to people who support terrorists and suicide bombers. And, Israel has not really been the physical aggressor, although I suppose continuing to build in Palestinian claimed territories is a form of physical aggression and provocation.

Kikko, from what I know, is from Finland. So I think I am alone in this case (unless Moshe or HurricanIL will care to join usTongue).
Homes are provocation but rockets are not?
I agree with you, and that why I support the "2 people 2 states" solution. Because I want my country to stay a Jewish one. I want to be a Jewish in my Jewish country. I couldn't care less about the Palestinians, really. I don't care if they have a country or not, if their trees are uprooted or not. I just want to live quietly with peace. I want them to get out of my country and build a long, high and strong wall between us. I want to have no conection between my country and Arabs.

Quote:I'm not much of a fan or supporter of Obama but I think he is exactly right that Israel needs to start re-thinking how it manages this issue. They should put the 2000 peace deal back on the table and see if they can work a deal for a two state solution. There will obviously be elements within the Palestinian side that will never accept peace, but it will be much easier to marginalize those factions to the rest of the world if israel puts a peace deal, a real peace deal, on the table. If you continue to follow the policies of their current regime, you can't seriously expect the US to blindly follow you and take a position contrary to our own self interests. We have enough people trying to blow us up already.

And that exactley what I am talking about: the 2000 peace deal (which we offer and the Arabs refused), the Oslo agreements (which the weapon we gave to the Arabs so they could control their own criminals was used against us in the second intifada), the "2 states 2 people" solution (which we accepeted and the Arabs didn't), the settlemts freeze etc, etc. Israel doesn't need to re-think about how it acts, the Palestinians need to re-think. Name one efort, in the last 62 years or more, that the Arabs made to rich peace? I already named you 4 actions Israel did to have peace (actions which were responded with kicks in Israel's ass), and I can name you more.
Eventually, Israel will be tired of turning the other cheek, and we will become what the world already think we are- genocidal country.
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20-08-2010, 03:27 PM
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
I'm afraid that this conversation has left my area of expertise. I don't know enough about international politics and negotiations to continue this. Sorry.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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20-08-2010, 03:31 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2010 03:36 PM by shiranl.)
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
We forgive you Tongue

And I ask your permission, BnW, to leave the thread as well since this is my bed time (kidding, I'm tired. tomorrow we continue).
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20-08-2010, 04:57 PM
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
I was mistaking Kikko for someone else. My bad. And, I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight with you on this and I hope you don't take my comments in any was directed at you. But, as I'm in a different time zone, I'll be sleeping when you're ready to come back so forgive me for getting a jump on it! Cool

Anyway, I think you missed my point a little. First, I wasn't trying to say that the US could control Israel. On the contrary, I don't think we can or do. And, while I know the Israeli government has tried to stop the settlements, it does not seem that they have tried all that hard.

As for the rocket attacks, yes, the US has not gotten directly involved but we have provided weapons to Israel and we've mostly treated that as an internal matter for Israel. My point on Israel being attacked was if it was attacked by an outside party, say Iran, the US would get involved. Obviously we did not get directly involved with the war on the Lebanese boarder 2 years ago, but I think that was partly because we thought that Israel would eradicate Hizzbulah without much effort. Turns out that was not the case, but that was a bit of a surprise, I think to everyone.

Finally, I agree with you that the Palestinians have rejected all peace efforts and have done nothing to help the process. I don't believe in heaven but I really hope there is a hell because I'm sure that if there is then Arafat is burning in it. All that said, there is a reality here and that reality is this: Israel will not survive if the current situation continues. It simply will not and can not continue. This is not an opinion on politics, but a matter of simple math.

The math deals with the Palestinian birth rates (although I've read some things recently that suggest in the past few years the Jews have started to make up some ground) and the growing populations and strength of the Arab countries. As long as Israel is viewed as an occupier and an oppressor, they will continue to lose European support and the Arabs will become more and more emboldened to take action. The US, with its own interests, cannot be counted on to always be willing to back Israel militarily, and you are seeing some of that in play now, I think. Eventually, by sheer number of Arab births, Israel's continued existence will be threatened. They won't be able to fight everyone and a majority of their internal population will be working against them. The long term solution requires they reach an accord with the Palestinians that diffuses the issue, or gets world support in their favor so they have allies when the Arabs due attack again.

It may be that the radical elements always win out and the Palestinians will never be willing to reach a peace accord. However, perceptions become reality in the world of political diplomacy and right now the perception in much of the world is the Palestinians, despite launching rocket attacks and sending murder bombers to blow up civilians, are viewed as the victims. It's laughable but it's the cold hard reality and Israel has very few friends in the world right now. Unless Israel changes that perception, or starts pumping out a massive amount of babies, simple math just works against them.

Btw, I think Israel has absolutely every right to defend themselves. I think they had every right to build a wall to keep terrorists from coming in and blowing up civilians. What I think doesn't matter, though.

Sleep tight. We can talk tomorrow.

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21-08-2010, 12:23 AM
 
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
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21-08-2010, 12:31 AM
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
(21-08-2010 12:23 AM)wonder9 Wrote:  hiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
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21-08-2010, 04:07 AM
RE: Who gives a Crap whether Obama is Muslim or Christian?
(20-08-2010 04:57 PM)BnW Wrote:  I was mistaking Kikko for someone else. My bad. And, I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight with you on this and I hope you don't take my comments in any was directed at you. But, as I'm in a different time zone, I'll be sleeping when you're ready to come back so forgive me for getting a jump on it! Cool

Anyway, I think you missed my point a little. First, I wasn't trying to say that the US could control Israel. On the contrary, I don't think we can or do. And, while I know the Israeli government has tried to stop the settlements, it does not seem that they have tried all that hard.

As for the rocket attacks, yes, the US has not gotten directly involved but we have provided weapons to Israel and we've mostly treated that as an internal matter for Israel. My point on Israel being attacked was if it was attacked by an outside party, say Iran, the US would get involved. Obviously we did not get directly involved with the war on the Lebanese boarder 2 years ago, but I think that was partly because we thought that Israel would eradicate Hizzbulah without much effort. Turns out that was not the case, but that was a bit of a surprise, I think to everyone.

Finally, I agree with you that the Palestinians have rejected all peace efforts and have done nothing to help the process. I don't believe in heaven but I really hope there is a hell because I'm sure that if there is then Arafat is burning in it. All that said, there is a reality here and that reality is this: Israel will not survive if the current situation continues. It simply will not and can not continue. This is not an opinion on politics, but a matter of simple math.

The math deals with the Palestinian birth rates (although I've read some things recently that suggest in the past few years the Jews have started to make up some ground) and the growing populations and strength of the Arab countries. As long as Israel is viewed as an occupier and an oppressor, they will continue to lose European support and the Arabs will become more and more emboldened to take action. The US, with its own interests, cannot be counted on to always be willing to back Israel militarily, and you are seeing some of that in play now, I think. Eventually, by sheer number of Arab births, Israel's continued existence will be threatened. They won't be able to fight everyone and a majority of their internal population will be working against them. The long term solution requires they reach an accord with the Palestinians that diffuses the issue, or gets world support in their favor so they have allies when the Arabs due attack again.

It may be that the radical elements always win out and the Palestinians will never be willing to reach a peace accord. However, perceptions become reality in the world of political diplomacy and right now the perception in much of the world is the Palestinians, despite launching rocket attacks and sending murder bombers to blow up civilians, are viewed as the victims. It's laughable but it's the cold hard reality and Israel has very few friends in the world right now. Unless Israel changes that perception, or starts pumping out a massive amount of babies, simple math just works against them.

Btw, I think Israel has absolutely every right to defend themselves. I think they had every right to build a wall to keep terrorists from coming in and blowing up civilians. What I think doesn't matter, though.

Sleep tight. We can talk tomorrow.

I don't know why we even discuss on this topic, really. I agree with each and every word. And from all the reasons you mentioned above (birth rates, Palestinians as victims etc, etc) I want and support the "2 states 2 people" solution. Only I am asking for is exactley what you mention-perceptions- Israel is not the only side in this war, and therefore both sides need to act so we can reach peace. In the current situation- Israel is seen like the only one responsible to the war. and therefore the only one who need to do something in order to get peace agreements. And the reality, and I'm sure you agree with me, is much more complicated than that.
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