Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
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06-12-2013, 09:20 PM
Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
England ...

I personally thank England sincerely for two sentences: [1] Truth only exists in the range of the cannons (no likely the original quote, which was said by Bismarck, demonstrated again by the Opium Wars), [2] A country does not have permanent friends, only permanent interests.

Here's the news:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree...jing-china

David Cameron's humiliation in Beijing may yet serve a useful purpose

Rarely have the exaggerated pretensions of a British prime minister been so harshly and humiliatingly brought crashing to earth as with David Cameron's policy on China. China's leaders are too skilled in diplomacy to state it bluntly during Cameron's current Beijing visit, but the rest of the world, including numerous British commentators, knows exactly what has occurred.

Last year Cameron met the Dalai Lama, which in China's terms has about the same level of subtlety as Xi Jinping meeting Alex Salmond to "wish him well" in his campaign for Scottish independence or de Gaulle's notorious 1967 "Vive le Québec libre" speech. It was predictably met with the "big freeze" – British ministers being refused meetings with their senior Chinese counterparts.

Cameron seems to have believed that China's leaders would blink first in the ensuing standoff – as though the world's second largest economy, with 7.8% growth, needed help from a UK whose GDP has not even regained its level of five years ago. It didn't happen and, as Simon Jenkins put it, "Cameron could hardly have grovelled lower. Downing Street sources say Britain has now 'turned a page' and is 'looking to the future'; it will show 'mutual respect and understanding'." The lesson that China is now a great power and Britain is not was forcibly driven home.

This humiliation for Cameron regrettably inevitably reflects on the country he leads. But the policy of seeking the best mutually beneficial ties between Britain and China should be resumed.

These relations are in reality, not just as a trite phrase, a potential "win-win situation". Britain needs China's investment in its infrastructure, China as a market for faltering exports, and to grab a small proportion of the 100 million Chinese tourists who will soon be travelling abroad. China needs Britain's hi-tech knowledge in areas such as life sciences, and London, the world's biggest foreign exchange trading centre, as a base for its currency's internationalisation.

All Cameron did was to make these relations more difficult. Not even the British government believes its official rhetoric that its earlier policies had no effect on economic ties. If that were true, Cameron would not feel the need to eat political humble pie and lead the biggest ever group of business leaders to China.

Some general lessons can be drawn from this episode. Seen from China, Britain's attempts to claim some moral high ground in its dealings with the country have no credibility. What is Britain's record? Its first major encounter with China was to send troops to force the country to import British opium. Then it seized the island of Hong Kong – perhaps the Chinese government will ask for the Isle of Wight in compensation. Then its troops destroyed the summer palace in Beijing – perhaps the People's Liberation Army should loot and burn Buckingham Palace. Britain lectures China on democracy in Hong Kong when, in the whole time the UK ruled the island, it never allowed democratic government until it realised it would be forced to return its colony to China. Or, to come up to the present, Britain was the chief US ally in an invasion of Iraq, which led to hundreds of thousands of deaths while China raised more than 600 million people – more than the EU's entire population – out of poverty.

David Cameron's political career is coming to an end. After he loses the 2015 general election, and the Tory party has carried out the ritual slaughter of the failed leader, the new prime minister, Ed Miliband, may want to ponder the more general lessons of Cameron's Chinese fiasco for British foreign policy as he plans his Beijing visit.

There are many things people all over the world want from this country in which we can take pride – investment, Shakespeare, science, humour, pop music and trade, to name but a few. But it would be good to apologise for, and stay out of, things the world did not want to receive from this country – visits from gunships, opium, seizure of islands and interference in their internal affairs.

If that more general lesson can be absorbed, Cameron's current humiliation in Beijing will have served a useful purpose after all.

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06-12-2013, 09:32 PM
RE: Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
(06-12-2013 09:20 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  There are many things people all over the world want from this country in which we can take pride – investment, Shakespeare, science, humour, pop music and trade, to name but a few.

If that more general lesson can be absorbed, Cameron's current humiliation in Beijing will have served a useful purpose after all.

Nope. The Chinese asked for a copy of Downton Abbey, Season IV. He said he didn't have one, so they got mad. That's all "people from all over the world want from this country". Tongue

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06-12-2013, 10:15 PM
RE: Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
@HU.Junyuan, thanks for the Chinese perspective. Why is it so offensive to show some support for the Dalai Lama? Are there Chinese who are sympathetic to Tibet, and feel they shouldn't be forced to be part of China against their will? Is there a moral argument to it, or is it just political posturing?
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06-12-2013, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2013 11:02 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
(06-12-2013 10:15 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @HU.Junyuan, thanks for the Chinese perspective. Why is it so offensive to show some support for the Dalai Lama? Are there Chinese who are sympathetic to Tibet, and feel they shouldn't be forced to be part of China against their will? Is there a moral argument to it, or is it just political posturing?

Firstly, the news is written by John Ross, a former deputy mayor of London.

Secondly, any sound data to support the "against their will" question?

Thirdly, “Are there Chinese who are sympathetic to Tibet, and feel they shouldn't be forced to be part of China against their will?” Hey, where has the spirit of democracy gone ? Since Tibet has never been an widely recognized independent nation for the past 100 years, why don't you seek the majority opinion of the 1.3 billion Chinese people ?

Lastly, I advise you to read the two sentences I quoted again. As for Dali Lama, he does not have powerful cannons, he is doing no good to China, and he is able to do little harm. Done.

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06-12-2013, 10:58 PM
RE: Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
(06-12-2013 09:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 09:20 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  There are many things people all over the world want from this country in which we can take pride – investment, Shakespeare, science, humour, pop music and trade, to name but a few.

If that more general lesson can be absorbed, Cameron's current humiliation in Beijing will have served a useful purpose after all.

Nope. The Chinese asked for a copy of Downton Abbey, Season IV. He said he didn't have one, so they got mad. That's all "people from all over the world want from this country". Tongue

Acutually I am more interested in your title "ɥɐıssǝɯ ssɐpɐq". What does it mean ? I am a translator, you know, so I am quite curious.

Have a nice weekend.

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06-12-2013, 11:01 PM
RE: Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
how many people from Tibet want to be free from china?.....what happens should the 1.3 billion Chinese want to keep Tibet but the people from Tibet want to leave china and stake it out on their own. or visa versa?

just curious
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06-12-2013, 11:18 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2013 11:22 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
(06-12-2013 11:01 PM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  how many people from Tibet want to be free from china?.....what happens should the 1.3 billion Chinese want to keep Tibet but the people from Tibet want to leave china and stake it out on their own. or visa versa?

just curious

As for the "how many" question, I am also curious about it. I don't know the number, yet does not feel like bothering to find out a number satisfactory to all viewers.

What if People from Tibet want to leave China and the 1.3 billion Chinese want to keep it ? It is pretty much the current situation: go away all as they like, but please leave the land undisturbed behind.

What if the 1.3 billion Chinese people want Tibet to leave yet it wants to stay? Highly unlikely. As an emulation, let's see what will happen to Greece and Spain first.

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06-12-2013, 11:29 PM
RE: Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
(06-12-2013 10:52 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Since Tibet has never been an widely recognized independent nation for the past 100 years, why don't you seek the majority opinion of the 1.3 billion Chinese people ?

Here I strongly disagree. Imagine there are 10 people who are living in a house; 8 men and 2 female sex slaves being held against their will. Are you saying that the 2 women should be freed ONLY if the majority of men decide so? They don't have the right themselves to decide? To me it's slavery when people are not given the right to leave without the permission of another person or group.

This isn't just a China issue. Here in the US a lot of Texans signed a petition to have Texas leave the USA and become it's own country. Obama said 'no, that can only happen if the rest of the US agrees'. IMO, that's like slavery. If Texas wants to leave, they should be free to leave if the majority of Texans want it.

I don't know much about Tibet, nor do I have any real opinions on the matter except that _IF_ the majority of Tibetans want to leave China and be independent, I think they should be free to leave, regardless of what the rest of China thinks. Remember the debate in the 'ask a communist' thread. I'm a firm believer that 'freedom of movement' is a basic human right and that everybody should be allowed to leave with no strings attached and without requiring permission from another party.
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06-12-2013, 11:55 PM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2013 07:41 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
(06-12-2013 11:29 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 10:52 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Since Tibet has never been an widely recognized independent nation for the past 100 years, why don't you seek the majority opinion of the 1.3 billion Chinese people ?

Here I strongly disagree. Imagine there are 10 people who are living in a house; 8 men and 2 female sex slaves being held against their will. Are you saying that the 2 women should be freed ONLY if the majority of men decide so? They don't have the right themselves to decide? To me it's slavery when people are not given the right to leave without the permission of another person or group.

This isn't just a China issue. Here in the US a lot of Texans signed a petition to have Texas leave the USA and become it's own country. Obama said 'no, that can only happen if the rest of the US agrees'. IMO, that's like slavery. If Texas wants to leave, they should be free to leave if the majority of Texans want it.

I don't know much about Tibet, nor do I have any real opinions on the matter except that _IF_ the majority of Tibetans want to leave China and be independent, I think they should be free to leave, regardless of what the rest of China thinks. Remember the debate in the 'ask a communist' thread. I'm a firm believer that 'freedom of movement' is a basic human right and that everybody should be allowed to leave with no strings attached and without requiring permission from another party.

Let's focus on the reality, OK ?

I asked "any sound data to support the 'against their will' question" ?

And here I ask again: any sound data to support your comparison that the "sex slave" situation is happening to the minority group of Tibetans ?

Dude, you gotta have a sound foundation before you raise an arguement. Or, do you ?

Edit: As for the "freedom to leave" thing, if you mean migration, there's no limit on that (at least I don't know of), just like what Vice Premier Deng Xiaoping said to President Jimmy Carter in 1979, "how many do you want ? Is 10 million enough ? "

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07-12-2013, 12:52 AM
RE: Who humiliated David Cameron ? What do you think ?
(06-12-2013 10:58 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 09:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nope. The Chinese asked for a copy of Downton Abbey, Season IV. He said he didn't have one, so they got mad. That's all "people from all over the world want from this country". Tongue

Acutually I am more interested in your title "ɥɐıssǝɯ ssɐpɐq". What does it mean ? I am a translator, you know, so I am quite curious.

Have a nice weekend.
ɥɐıssǝɯ ssɐpɐq is badass messiah flipped upside down. If that was a joke just call me Capt. ObviousBig Grin

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