Who is this God?
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12-09-2011, 07:16 PM
Who is this God?
Is it possible for finite human beings to believe in something beyond their powers to concepualize?
At the secular level we can ponder upon high ideals and truths ,and such will always be limited in varying degrees to what we hold to be meaningfull. Hitler, who quoted Jesus in some instances, in his tirades against the Jews, was seen by almost a whole nation as one intent on establishing a high moral order. In other word Fascism was seen as a virtuous ideology with a religious backing,by at least some.

Again, at the secular level, we may try and act as morally as we see fit but our evolved complexity renders our decision making, albeit perhaps genuine, very inadequate when it comes to any degee of consensus. Issues such as military expenditure, poverty, birth control, abortion, euthanasia, and 'rights 'of an amazing diversity impact greatly on those of us who think. We can do our best (someone elses worst) and still feel that we are acting in a good or godly manner. I use the word 'godly' loosely here. We can try and do our best, at the secular level but can never be really sure of our actions.

Let me give two examples of the above. Billions of dollars spent world wide on ultra sophisticated weapons are seen by most as a moral neccessity to curb evil; the profit motive, shares etc being a fortunate side issue. Evil, like a deadly virus is to be eradicated at all costs, but what of its essential genesis?
(2) In societies based on extreme consumerism a burgeoning population is deemed essential in order to keep the vicious circle circling.

So, at the secular level god (goodness) may be rougly looked on at genuine efforts to do well for self and others with collateral damage due to the evil of others
and ill fortune.

Where does the god of religion come into the equation? The god of religion can only speculate on eternal rights and wrongs and come up with threats and highly contentious claims and counter claims. The god of religion can make humans act with extreme hatred on the basis of vacuous assumptions. The god of religion can turn unthinking groups into the puppets of wise men, masters, and priests.
Any good that comes from this must be weighed up against the bad.

Is there perhaps some higher spiritual force separated from the worst of our egocentric religious perpetrators of so called Universal truth? Are we perhaps now in some hell of our own making? How do finite beings come to any meaningfull grips with eternal promises? Just who and how this god of our weird definitions might operate,as yet, for me, is a vague yet not unstirring wistfullness.
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12-09-2011, 08:58 PM
RE: Who is this God?
(12-09-2011 07:16 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Are we perhaps now in some hell of our own making?

Feels likely to me. ... Or heaven if you prefer.

(12-09-2011 07:16 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  How do finite beings come to any meaningfull grips with eternal promises?

By dismissing bullshit promises out of hand.

(12-09-2011 07:16 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Just who and how this god of our weird definitions might operate,as yet, for me, is a vague yet not unstirring wistfullness.

I am starting to get this unsettling queasiness that god is us. ... and god help us if that's the case.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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12-09-2011, 11:33 PM
RE: Who is this God?
(12-09-2011 08:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-09-2011 07:16 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Are we perhaps now in some hell of our own making?

Feels likely to me. ... Or heaven if you prefer.

(12-09-2011 07:16 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  How do finite beings come to any meaningfull grips with eternal promises?

By dismissing bullshit promises out of hand.

(12-09-2011 07:16 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Just who and how this god of our weird definitions might operate,as yet, for me, is a vague yet not unstirring wistfullness.

I am starting to get this unsettling queasiness that god is us. ... and god help us if that's the case.

Thanks G.M. Biocentrism, hey.......Bishop Berkeley may have had something after all!
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13-09-2011, 07:05 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2011 07:54 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Who is this God?
(12-09-2011 11:33 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Thanks G.M. Biocentrism, hey.......Bishop Berkeley may have had something after all!

He sure as hell had some interesting shit to say didn't he? All them old dead bastards we still consider today did. He never went atheist because he thought he had produced a proof of god without considering the possibility that we we are collectively capable of being responsible for those ideas imprinted on me which are not creatures of my will (this also requires a rejection of solipsism, which so far I have both found irrefutable and intolerable, it's just fucking confounding). But if I admit that possibility, that we collectively are god, am I still an atheist? ... And does that label even mean anything anymore or has it lost its semantic foundation? ... I'm pretty sure I don't much give much of a shit any which way.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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13-09-2011, 09:25 PM
RE: Who is this God?
(12-09-2011 08:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I am starting to get this unsettling queasiness that god is us. ... and god help us if that's the case.

Exactly right, we are "god". We are all we have, sadly!

It's a pity that early humans didn't realise it, but chose instead to assign their misfortunes and successes to supernatural beings.

The Romans, of course, being masters of strategy(and opportunists to boot), saw a chance to control their Empire using their very carefully constructed version of Christianity( a minor religion, prior) to enforce control. Fear of the enforcement and fear of the "one true god" paid dividends for the Romans.

It well past the time that humans should have realised that we are "god" and are responsible for ourselves, but never too late to start, hopefully!

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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14-09-2011, 06:05 PM
RE: Who is this God?
(13-09-2011 09:25 PM)Organon Wrote:  
(12-09-2011 08:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I am starting to get this unsettling queasiness that god is us. ... and god help us if that's the case.

Exactly right, we are "god". We are all we have, sadly!

It's a pity that early humans didn't realise it, but chose instead to assign their misfortunes and successes to supernatural beings.

The Romans, of course, being masters of strategy(and opportunists to boot), saw a chance to control their Empire using their very carefully constructed version of Christianity( a minor religion, prior) to enforce control. Fear of the enforcement and fear of the "one true god" paid dividends for the Romans.

It well past the time that humans should have realised that we are "god" and are responsible for ourselves, but never too late to start, hopefully!

G'day O.F.A. Re Rome's utilization of the new religion; you are spot on.
Constantine was acting for political gain; he even claimed to have seen a flaming cross in the night sky.
It is interesting that some early sects, most prominently the Marcionites believed that Yahweh was a sub standard god and that Jesus represented the true one.
Had this sect gained early control all, or a good deal of the O.T., would have been eliminated and the new religion quite different.Cool
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