Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
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11-11-2013, 04:15 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 03:57 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I am using this observation in nature as evidence for God because it is the type of observation you would expect to see if God exists. I'm not claiming it proves God's existence but it certainly supports my belief that God exists.

Conversely it should weaken your belief that God does not exist if it doesn't convince you of His existence.

It is an observation of nature, so all you are doing is equating an unexplained aspect of nature with your 'god'. So it doesn't support anything. You are simply asserting that it is evidence for your god, you are asserting it is evidence you'd expect to find.

You haven't even defined your 'god' yet!

You have a major case of putting the cart before the horse Heywood; and it reeks of desperation and confirmation bias, not honest inquiry.

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11-11-2013, 04:21 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 04:15 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It is an observation of nature, so all you are doing is equating an unexplained aspect of nature with your 'god'. So it doesn't support anything. You are simply asserting that it is evidence for your god, you are asserting it is evidence you'd expect to find.

No, this isn't equating an unexplained aspect of nature with anything.

It is a proof that hidden variable theory is false.
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11-11-2013, 04:23 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
<_<
>_>
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Scale produces the perception of randomness. We're so big and so slow, we're also evolved to recognize patterns, so when we run out of fingers and toes we call the next pattern "random."

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11-11-2013, 04:27 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 04:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(11-11-2013 03:58 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Does it? I thought bells theory PROMOTED the fact that there are hidden variables or constants and was really focussed on denying the assumptions made by QM, those of locality and realism, and did not Alain Aspect prove that QM does not have all the answers, supporting Bells theory.

To use the denial of a theory as proof of randomness is a false dilemma, just because QM cant explain it, does not mean that there is no other explanation for it.

Quote:Bell’s theorem essentially boils down to a proof that the result of an experiment doesn’t exist until the measurement is made (so it can’t be predicted). Hidden variable theory presupposes that the particles involved are in definite states, which means that the result of a measurement already exists before the measurement is made. For example: before you open a gift what you’ll see is already set in stone. The gift is a set thing before you open the box. This is not the case for most quantum mechanical systems.

God does play dice with the universe

That might not be as sound as you think.

Disproof of Bell’s Theorem by Clifford Algebra Valued Local Variables

Quote:It is shown that Bell’s theorem fails for the Clifford algebra valued local realistic variables. This is made evident by exactly reproducing quantum mechanical expectation value for the EPR-Bohm type spin correlations observable by means of a local, deterministic, Clifford algebra valued variable, without necessitating either remote contextuality or backward causation. Since Clifford product of multivector variables is non-commutative in general, the spin correlations derived within our locally causal model violate the CHSH inequality just as strongly as their quantum mechanical counterparts.

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11-11-2013, 04:30 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 04:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(11-11-2013 03:58 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  Does it? I thought bells theory PROMOTED the fact that there are hidden variables or constants and was really focussed on denying the assumptions made by QM, those of locality and realism, and did not Alain Aspect prove that QM does not have all the answers, supporting Bells theory.

To use the denial of a theory as proof of randomness is a false dilemma, just because QM cant explain it, does not mean that there is no other explanation for it.

Quote:Bell’s theorem essentially boils down to a proof that the result of an experiment doesn’t exist until the measurement is made (so it can’t be predicted). Hidden variable theory presupposes that the particles involved are in definite states, which means that the result of a measurement already exists before the measurement is made. For example: before you open a gift what you’ll see is already set in stone. The gift is a set thing before you open the box. This is not the case for most quantum mechanical systems.

God does play dice with the universe

This is the issue with letting people with no concept of logical thinking loose with wikipedia and articles that miss the point and mean nothing.

QM remains a theory, as does SR and GR, this is because they are a very very good approximation of what happens, just because you find proof they don't apply in some situations does not mean there is something mystical about it, it just means they do not explain this particular instance, and need to be refined, as they are doing.

Bells theory has said that there is no hidden variable or constant that can fit within QM to explain what happens, (this is a bit of an argument from silence) it does not say that there is no hidden variable or constant.

There is no 'proof' of the absence of a hidden variable, hell even arguing so deny's the existence of a god.. Is this so Mr Heywood? do you deny the existence of god?
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11-11-2013, 04:49 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 04:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  No, this isn't equating an unexplained aspect of nature with anything.

It is a proof that hidden variable theory is false.

No. It is simply evidence indicative that a hidden variable probably does not exist, or cannot be explained, within the framework of Quantum Mechanics. That does not prove that a hidden variable does not exists as a level below Quantum Mechanics, or that Quantum Mechanics isn't fundamentally flawed or limited in some way as to be unable to account for such a thing. What is does show is that according to our current understanding, we don't understand and cannot accurately predict this aspect of quantum mechanics.

Making the jump from that, to "I am using this observation in nature as evidence for God" is simply unfounded. Notice too that Heywood used god with a capitol G, and remember that even if it were evidence for a god/s (however that is defined), all of his work is still ahead of him in getting to the specific 'God' of classical monotheism.

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11-11-2013, 05:14 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
I'm happy to admit my ignorance of bells theory. All seems like emperors new clothes to me.
But if it cant be explained in layman's terms then its pseudo science. Or I need to study it.
What ever it is. its no more god evidence than gaps in the fossil record.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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11-11-2013, 05:17 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 03:29 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(11-11-2013 03:26 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  In quantum mechanics we could still calculate the odds of something happening with enough information. Lack of certainty isn't the same thing as randomness. Also, that is not the implication. God of the gaps, mon frere...

You can never predict when an specific uranium atom will decay. It is completely random. What is generating that randomness? Not some hidden physical variable because Bell's theorem allows us to test for the existence of such things.

What do you mean by 'generating randomness'?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-11-2013, 05:25 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 04:30 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  QM remains a theory, as does SR and GR,

Do you understand what the term theory means in science? I think you need to read this.
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11-11-2013, 05:26 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 05:14 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I'm happy to admit my ignorance of bells theory. All seems like emperors new clothes to me.
But if it cant be explained in layman's terms then its pseudo science. Or I need to study it.
What ever it is. its no more god evidence than gaps in the fossil record.

Bells Theorem in true laymans is..
From wiki
"No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics."
To laymans
"Quantum mechanics does not correctly predict reality regardless of hidden factors"

This pretty much says it all.. however HJ has decided that this means that there are no hidden factors at all.. which says a lot for his thoughts processes.

God, (if there is one) would be the ULTIMATE hidden variable. HJ uses reasoning that contradicts his belief...

But, Hey, when has there ever been hypocritical theists?
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