Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
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11-11-2013, 05:41 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 05:25 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(11-11-2013 04:30 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  QM remains a theory, as does SR and GR,

Do you understand what the term theory means in science? I think you need to read this.

I think you need to reread it too.. "but in science, a theory is a powerful explanation for a broad set of observations" they are approximations, the best explanation as we have at the minute.

SR, GR and QM have been proven to not explain the ultimates of a wider set of phenomena, and all fall foul of disruptions 'to the force'.. such as not applying in black holes and the such.

Whereas Laws such as thermodynamics apply regardless of situation and generate these 'best guess' explanations that seem to hook the interest of the shallow minded as fact and gospel. When there is proof something does not apply, a better explanation must be sought, this is the lifeblood of scientific progress.

It is ironic that you link the support for your argument to a page with childrens drawings on it Wink
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11-11-2013, 05:44 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
It must be nice having answers. You know the cause of the universe. You know the cause of randomness. Except. Scientifically speaking, your hypothesis must make reliable predictions that differ from those of alternative models. Unless your hypothesis makes surprising, reliable predictions it is of no explanatory power.

You think your "God dunnit" hypothesis puts you in a position of greater knowledge or greater certainty than the position of others who reject your hypothesis. The fact is that your supposed knowledge is nothing more than faith, nothing more than believing things for no good reason, and nothing more than an excuse to stop looking for the real answer. It also puts your faith right in the crosshairs of the god of the gaps problem. If someone were to find the source of quantum randomness and offer a new hypothesis that makes surprising reliable predictions your hypothesis would be shown false. Would your faith be diminished in that event? If yes, you are guilty of an argument from ignorance: "I don't know, therefore I know". If no, you are guilty of cherrypicking any idea that you think supports your unwarranted hypothesis. You know nothing more than the rest of us, but lack the honesty and humility to say "I don't know" or even to stay silent.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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11-11-2013, 05:50 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 05:25 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(11-11-2013 04:30 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  QM remains a theory, as does SR and GR,

Do you understand what the term theory means in science? I think you need to read this.

Are you saying that QM does not remain as a theory?

Or are you saying that you didn't read the rest of the sentence?

Or that you did read it but decided to cut no slack for inelegant sentence construction?

Repeated for reference:

(11-11-2013 04:30 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  ...
QM remains a theory, as does SR and GR, this is because they are a very very good approximation of what happens, just because you find proof they don't apply in some situations does not mean there is something mystical about it, it just means they do not explain this particular instance, and need to be refined, as they are doing.
...

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11-11-2013, 05:58 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
I see a pattern in HJ's threads and it's one that hasn't changed during the time he's been on this forum. Consider

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11-11-2013, 06:04 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 05:58 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I see a pattern in HJ's threads and it's one that hasn't changed during the time he's been on this forum. Consider

Meh!

It's what you get for allowing random theists onto the forum.

Drinking Beverage

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11-11-2013, 06:11 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 03:26 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  In quantum mechanics we could still calculate the odds of something happening with enough information.

No we couldn't. The consensus view of physicists is that randomness is an objective feature of the universe.

At the beginning of the twentieth century there was a general conviction that the laws of the universe were totally deterministic. Probability theory was considered to be a purely mathematical trick allowing us to deal with our ignorance of the initial conditions of many phenomena...The development of quantum mechanics, starting with the pioneering work of the physicists Max Planck (research on black body radiation, which established the concept of the emission of discrete energy quantities, or energy quanta), Albert Einstein (research on the photoelectriceffect, establishing the concept of photons as light quanta) and Louis de Broglie (dual wave–particle nature of the electron), at the beginning of the twentieth century, came to change the Laplacian conception of the laws of nature, revealing the existence of many so-called quantum phenomena whose probabilistic description is not simply the result of resorting to a comfortable way of dealing with our ignorance about the conditions that produced them. For quantum phenomena the probabilistic description is not just a handy trick, but an absolute necessity imposed by their intrinsically random nature. Quantum phenomena are ‘pure chance’ phenomena.
(pp.125-6, Marques de Sá (2008) Chance: The Life of Games & the Game of Life)
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11-11-2013, 06:27 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 05:41 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  It is ironic that you link the support for your argument to a page with childrens drawings on it Wink

There is no irony, I chose it just for you. You are using the term theory as if it implies epistemic inferiority. "Evolution is a just theory" is the cry of the ignorant. There is no "just a theory". A theory does everything that needs to be done: it predicts, it explains, it generates testable hypotheses etc. The phrase "it remains a theory" or "it's just a theory" is ignorant. What more is there than a theory?
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11-11-2013, 06:29 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 05:26 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  
(11-11-2013 05:14 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I'm happy to admit my ignorance of bells theory. All seems like emperors new clothes to me.
But if it cant be explained in layman's terms then its pseudo science. Or I need to study it.
What ever it is. its no more god evidence than gaps in the fossil record.

Bells Theorem in true laymans is..
From wiki
"No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics."
To laymans
"Quantum mechanics does not correctly predict reality regardless of hidden factors"

This pretty much says it all.. however HJ has decided that this means that there are no hidden factors at all.. which says a lot for his thoughts processes.

God, (if there is one) would be the ULTIMATE hidden variable. HJ uses reasoning that contradicts his belief...

But, Hey, when has there ever been hypocritical theists?
Thanks. That makes it clearer. Was getting sick of people with possibly less understanding than me using it to claim an
Irrational premise.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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11-11-2013, 06:34 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 05:50 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Or that you did read it but decided to cut no slack for inelegant sentence construction?

That because it sows the seeds of confusion.

Say "QM hasn't been falsified" or "QM remains a valid theory", not "QM remains a theory". The last implies QM can become something other than a theory or that it is in an epistemically inferior position.
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11-11-2013, 06:38 AM
RE: Who or what throws the dice for atheists?
(11-11-2013 06:27 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(11-11-2013 05:41 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  It is ironic that you link the support for your argument to a page with childrens drawings on it Wink

There is no irony, I chose it just for you. You are using the term theory as if it implies epistemic inferiority. "Evolution is a just theory" is the cry of the ignorant. There is no "just a theory". A theory does everything that needs to be done: it predicts, it explains, it generates testable hypotheses etc. The phrase "it remains a theory" or "it's just a theory" is ignorant. What more is there than a theory?

ahh I see.. no offense meant chippy, I totally didnt mean it 'just a theory'.. they are bloody good theories.. Tongue which unfortunately have been proven to be inaccurate.. This does not dismay scientist, as that proof allows them to find better approximations that lead to greater understanding.

I highlighted the premise, as denial to the wishful thinking of HJ that randomness is a sign of god. Wink
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