Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
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24-07-2016, 07:25 AM
Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
I do.

But every formal theist with whom I had the chance to communicate used trusting his preferred representatives of his god more than himself anytime they interpret what we may call “God’s Word”.

When I joined this forum, I thought the situation will be different in this respect. But the only difference I noticed here (during my stay so far) is hearing “god doesn’t exist”. This is why I am asking clearly now:
Does anyone here trust his personal intellectual powers more than any other tools and/or sources to discover what could be related to his own being/existence, life and the real world?

Many here were kind to show me indirectly that they are not used to discuss any crucial subject if they have to use their personal logical reasoning only. They ask me, as formal theists do, to support any new idea, I may reveal, by quoting related verses from the modern bible... the international media.

Well, I recall someone said something like:

“I think therefore I exist.”

My updated/evolved version of it could be expressed as:

If I cannot trust myself fully, the “I” doesn’t exist fully as well.

Here, the “I” refers to the essence of my own existence.
This leads me to say:

If I can trust myself partially, the “I” exists partially as well.

Fortunately, I didn’t meet a person who doesn’t trust his own logic ‘completely’. And no matter how little the trust in himself is, it would be enough for him to exist... partially Wink

For instance, about quoting, I remember now this:
When I was at school (French one, about 50 years ago), we had an Italian teacher, Abbe Joseph, for the French course. He used asking us to add one or more quotations that support the subject of our homework; otherwise our grades would be marginal at best. My problem was (still is Wink ) I was interested in reading scientific-related books only as of Math, Physics... etc. So to solve this problem, I did the following. I wrote a well-presented statement which emphasized the main idea of the subject. And I checked very carefully its spelling to the point I showed it to my mother (also French educated) to correct any error I missed. I added this statement at the end of my text and followed it with something like “Kerim said”. The next day after submitting our homework, we got back our texts. On mine, there was a BIG ZERO in red and by it “Abbe Joseph said”.

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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24-07-2016, 07:32 AM
RE: Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
At work.

Hello again KerimF. Big Grin

Could you please, perhaps, pick out one small point in the above and repost that for discussion?

I have not the time nor ability to reply to such a huge amount of words/thoughts/ideas/expressions.

As I have said/explained before: if English is not your first language then keep your word use short and your points single.
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24-07-2016, 07:33 AM
RE: Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
Here a logic test for you.

Where is the best place to buy a dildo?

A. In an adult bookstore
B. Online
C. At a garage sale


The most logical is "C". You're going to spend HUGE money for the same "unit" in an adult bookstore as you'd buy online -- but, online you can't inspect the merchandise. At a garage sale - you'll get the best price and you can inspect the product in person.

The illogical disconnect comes from the "ewwwww" reaction - of not wanting to buy a used dildo - because someone else used it.....

Was your boyfriend a virgin? Even if he was -- you're not really sure what he's been dragging his dick through -- and you can't run his dick through a dishwasher - dip it in bleach -- or put it into an autoclave... You can, a used dildo....

Logic is a motherfucker, ain't it???


.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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24-07-2016, 07:41 AM
RE: Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
Can I trust all my senses?

"Partially" is the only correct answer for anyone who has seen optical illusions or has been in love or on drugs or has a basic knowledge of how humans evolved to live in this environment.

To leap to "therefore partially exist" is a non sequitur.

Oh and ... Geiger Counters... much better at detecting radiation than my hearing or eyesight or in-built proximity detectors.

So there's that.

Smile

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24-07-2016, 07:42 AM
RE: Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
(24-07-2016 07:25 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Many here were kind to show me indirectly that they are not used to discuss any crucial subject if they have to use their personal logical reasoning only.

Logic and reasoning are critically important in reaching conclusions but they are only as good as the premises that they start from. Any conclusion you reach through your "personal logical reasoning only" can't be assigned a truth value until you first evaluate the quality of the evidence on which that conclusion is based.

If the quality of your evidence is poor then the reliability of your conclusions is low no matter how good the logical reasoning employed is.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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24-07-2016, 07:46 AM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2016 07:51 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
(24-07-2016 07:25 AM)KerimF Wrote:  I do.

But every formal theist with whom I had the chance to communicate used trusting his preferred representatives of his god more than himself anytime they interpret what we may call “God’s Word”.

When I joined this forum, I thought the situation will be different in this respect. But the only difference I noticed here (during my stay so far) is hearing “god doesn’t exist”. This is why I am asking clearly now:
Does anyone here trust his personal intellectual powers more than any other tools and/or sources to discover what could be related to his own being/existence, life and the real world?

Many here were kind to show me indirectly that they are not used to discuss any crucial subject if they have to use their personal logical reasoning only. They ask me, as formal theists do, to support any new idea, I may reveal, by quoting related verses from the modern bible... the international media.

Well, I recall someone said something like:

“I think therefore I exist.”

My updated/evolved version of it could be expressed as:

If I cannot trust myself fully, the “I” doesn’t exist fully as well.

Here, the “I” refers to the essence of my own existence.
This leads me to say:

If I can trust myself partially, the “I” exists partially as well.

Fortunately, I didn’t meet a person who doesn’t trust his own logic ‘completely’. And no matter how little the trust in himself is, it would be enough for him to exist... partially Wink

For instance, about quoting, I remember now this:
When I was at school (French one, about 50 years ago), we had an Italian teacher, Abbe Joseph, for the French course. He used asking us to add one or more quotations that support the subject of our homework; otherwise our grades would be marginal at best. My problem was (still is Wink ) I was interested in reading scientific-related books only as of Math, Physics... etc. So to solve this problem, I did the following. I wrote a well-presented statement which emphasized the main idea of the subject. And I checked very carefully its spelling to the point I showed it to my mother (also French educated) to correct any error I missed. I added this statement at the end of my text and followed it with something like “Kerim said”. The next day after submitting our homework, we got back our texts. On mine, there was a BIG ZERO in red and by it “Abbe Joseph said”.

Kerim

No.
That's all you heard. You hear what you want to hear.
In fact, it was pointed out to you that your definition and concept of "logic" is totally false. You define "logic" to be "how YOU think". That's not "logic". You're lying to yourself by using that word. You don't even know what "logic" means.

(Real) logic is necessary but not sufficient. Evidence is required. Together they move us forward.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-07-2016, 07:56 AM
RE: Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
It seems to me that your premise is faulty. Like DLJ said a non-sequitur line of thinking.

Trying to interject a god because our human “intellectual powers” have limits is another “God of the Gaps” argument.

If anything the fact that our intellect has limits argues for no god, or for an imperfect god, or for a sloppy god. Drinking Beverage

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-07-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
(24-07-2016 07:41 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Can I trust all my senses?
"Partially" is the only correct answer for anyone who has seen optical illusions or has been in love or on drugs or has a basic knowledge of how humans evolved to live in this environment.

Oh and ... Geiger Counters... much better at detecting radiation than my hearing or eyesight or in-built proximity detectors.

If one trusts his senses without analysing carefully their received data, he would be doing anything but trusting himself as a real human being Wink
You gave good examples already.

Quote:To leap to "therefore partially exist" is a non sequitur.

Well, in case of theism, I don't need meeting a theist in person to know what he believes about his God's Word for example. If necessary, I just go straight to his preferred representatives of his god/belief. I mean he may exist fully to himself but, to me and as he insists on, most in him is just a mere photocopy... not genuine. This is what I mean by existing partially.

Please note that this is also a relative matter. For example, a photocopy sees another photocopy as another genuine one Big Grin

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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24-07-2016, 08:13 AM
RE: Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
(24-07-2016 07:25 AM)KerimF Wrote:  They ask me, as formal theists do, to support any new idea, I may reveal, by quoting related verses from the modern bible... the international media.

Where did anyone ask you to quote the "international media"?
I will give you two examples:
Quote:We are still waiting for your supporting evidence
Quote:Provide evidence, JUST FOR FUCKING ONE OF YOUR SILLY ASSERTIONS
Is there the word "media"? I cant see it, do you?

...and you still refuse to provide anything supporting your delusional worldview.

If you think you can throw around baseless assertions, then present a silly "logic" by which you dont have to provide anything supporting your assertions, then you must really have a low opinion of your audience or be very much deluded. By your own logic, i could throw out other baseless assertions as well, discarding your nonsense completely? So, who is right?

How do you find out who or what is right and not. What methodology do you have? Thats the only relevant topic here.

What we have here is not a super sceptical thinker who trusts his personal obsevations and "logic" (we already had a taste of your so called "logic" Facepalm ) and tries to be free from any "propaganda". What we indeed do have is someone who has constructed a little delusion for himself where he can make any outlandish claim he wants, and if asked to support it with anything (no "media", just anything) can dismiss anyone by the made up rules of his own. In other words: We have just another run of the mill conspiracy nut.

Good luck with your fantasy. Looks like it served you long enough to be able to cope with the harsh reality around you (which, ironically and sadly as i pointed out long ago) has absolutely nothing to do with what you believe it to be.

P.S.: Feel free to use the search function and look where i used the word media in my reply, asking you for evidence.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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24-07-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: Who trusts his observations and logic more than of any other sources?
(24-07-2016 07:56 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  It seems to me that your premise is faulty. Like DLJ said a non-sequitur line of thinking.

Trying to interject a god because our human “intellectual powers” have limits is another “God of the Gaps” argument.

If anything the fact that our intellect has limits argues for no god, or for an imperfect god, or for a sloppy god. Drinking Beverage

Sorry, did I ever say my intellectual powers have limits?

But I also understand that every man is free to believe that his intellect has limits to have more time for other things to do Wink

What about you?
Do you think you are not given all you need to get the logical useful answers, based on your logic, of ALL important questions, concerning your own existence in the least?
Many like believing that to get some of them, if not all, they need help from a few special humans too (much like the prophets for theists).

Kerim

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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