Who was John the Baptist?
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17-08-2015, 08:18 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2015 02:39 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(17-08-2015 08:17 AM)Free Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 09:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Please fill me in on your knowledge about or opinion about this.

It is a very complicated, difficult topic.

The first part of the word "nazar" (also nazir) finds its root to be meaning "to be set apart for sacred purposes." It was really all about ancient Hebrew priests and so-called prophets.

That word can be attached to other words, and formed into a new word, such as Nazarene.

The Nazarene were likely an off-shoot of the Essene, and therefore we have Nazar-ene. We arrive at this conclusion from Josephus' description of the Essene, and comparing the beliefs of the Essene to what we see attributed to Jesus in the Gospel records and other ancient records. They compare very well.

Since we know that nazar denotes priests and prophets, we can reason that Nazareth was a priestly community, inhabited by Nazarenes. Since Jesus purportedly came from Nazareth, and was regarded as a priest, and since James was also regarded as a priest, we just have more evidence to support that position.

You can read more about the Essene in Josephus, and more about the practices of the Nazir here.

The whole topic of who the Nazarenes, Nazorites and their relation to the Essenes is quite complicated.

There was a character called Essa, c 400 BCE, who may have been the founder of the Nazarenes.

It is true Josephus' description of the Essenes shares many similarities with the Nazarenes.
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17-08-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(17-08-2015 07:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 08:17 AM)Free Wrote:  Since Jesus purportedly came from Nazareth, and was regarded as a priest, and since James was also regarded as a priest, we just have more evidence to support that position.

Jesus was not "regarded as a priest". There is not a shred of evidence anywhere to support that rubbish, and no scholar says that. In fact a case for exactly the opposite could easily be made. The priests in Jerusalem were a specific class and set of families. Just more made up nonsense.

"The priests in Jerusalem were a specific class and set of families."

Yes... But don't forget that at the time of Jesus and John the Baptist these priests had been appointed by Rome, and were therefore regarded by many Jews as illegitimate. The dead sea scrolls confirm this. It is possible that John the Baptist and later James were considered to be of the correct blood to be legitimate priests. This is James Tabor's view.
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17-08-2015, 08:32 PM
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(17-08-2015 10:24 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 09:34 PM)Free Wrote:  Nazarenes are not Nazorites.

Just thought i would clear that up.

Big Grin

The root words for nazir (a person who has taken a vow), and Nazarath (the city), are totally different, as Free stated. I have absolutely no knowledge either way about a group of people living at this time as Nazarenes, but I still want to add my two cents about this topic.

To be a Nazir, one had to take a vow which included not cutting their hair, not touching anything that’s dead, and not touching or consuming grapes or grape products.

I know that Jesus was said to have consumed (or touched) wine, and he apparently brought a dead person back to life. Either action nullifies him as a Nazirite.
Oddly enough, the notion that the messiah would have to be characterized as a Nazarene in the first place is mentioned by Matthew in 2:23. He writes, “… And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”” It looks to me that the scripture (that I found) is saying that Jesus would simply come from the city.

…. Except that this prophesy that Matthew is referencing exists absolutely nowhere in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Nowhere does it say that the messiah needs to be a Nazarene or a nazir… Whether it’s a person who takes a vow, or a person who comes from the city, the prophesy doesn’t exist. Maybe Matthew never bothered to read the Hebrew Scriptures.

That's very astute of you. It's also not the only place Matthew quotes "scripture" incorrectly. Matthew forgets which prophet said what. After Judas throws down his silver in the temple and commits suicide, Matthew writes in 27:9 that this event “fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet :"They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; and gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord appointed me.” But it's not Jeremiah, it's Zechariah (11:13). Woops.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-08-2015, 08:48 PM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2015 09:01 PM by Aliza.)
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(17-08-2015 07:49 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 07:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Jesus was not "regarded as a priest". There is not a shred of evidence anywhere to support that rubbish, and no scholar says that. In fact a case for exactly the opposite could easily be made. The priests in Jerusalem were a specific class and set of families. Just more made up nonsense.

I agree with Bucky here. I'm not aware that Jesus was regarded as a priest.

James, his (? half) brother, was though.

His half-brother may have been a nazir, as it is a personal choice to become one. But his half-brother could not have been a priest (kohain) because the genealogy for Joseph would have applied to him. He would have been Davidic, from a branch that can't inherit the throne.

(Post edit)
.... Oh, but I think you're saying that he could have been appointed by the Romans, even if he didn't have the right lineage.
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17-08-2015, 10:23 PM
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(17-08-2015 04:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  Um... what was wrong with Nathan and Jeconiah? Did they do something Yahoo didn't like?

Yahoo is a new one for me. We have a different name for him in my culture, but Yahoo is cute. We call him (and I'll try to spell it out phonetically), "Yush-kee".

Whether you agree or disagree about the divinity of the bible’s origins, the messianic qualifications at this period of time are the sole domain of the Jewish people. The Jewish people specify clearly in the Hebrew scriptures that neither of these lineages may inherit.

Nathan didn’t do anything… he just wasn’t the son who inherited the throne from King David. The messianic line would go through his brother, Solomon, only.

Jeconiah (or Coniah) was a terrible king and got his line de-throned.

I’m aware of only these two lines that are specifically mentioned in the bible as being disqualified, and the writers of the NT managed to choose both of those lines for Jesus’s heritage. It’s almost as if they’re sending a secret signal to the Jewish people to stay away from this guy; he’s like poison.
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18-08-2015, 02:43 AM
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(17-08-2015 08:48 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 07:49 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I agree with Bucky here. I'm not aware that Jesus was regarded as a priest.

James, his (? half) brother, was though.

His half-brother may have been a nazir, as it is a personal choice to become one. But his half-brother could not have been a priest (kohain) because the genealogy for Joseph would have applied to him. He would have been Davidic, from a branch that can't inherit the throne.

(Post edit)
.... Oh, but I think you're saying that he could have been appointed by the Romans, even if he didn't have the right lineage.

I'll just remid you again that what was written in the gospels is just a story. We don't know the real genealogy for Jesus or James.
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18-08-2015, 03:00 AM
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(17-08-2015 10:23 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 04:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  Um... what was wrong with Nathan and Jeconiah? Did they do something Yahoo didn't like?

Yahoo is a new one for me. We have a different name for him in my culture, but Yahoo is cute. We call him (and I'll try to spell it out phonetically), "Yush-kee".

Ah, I didn't realise you were Jewish? Thanks for not being offended Smile I mean, I was being deliberately offensive so yeah... taking it into your stride indicates a worthwhile person, someone who can laugh at themselves, which is my major problem with most religious people. They're all (not all, as you have just proved) so goddamn serious Tongue

Quote:Whether you agree or disagree about the divinity of the bible’s origins, the messianic qualifications at this period of time are the sole domain of the Jewish people. The Jewish people specify clearly in the Hebrew scriptures that neither of these lineages may inherit.

Nathan didn’t do anything… he just wasn’t the son who inherited the throne from King David. The messianic line would go through his brother, Solomon, only.

Jeconiah (or Coniah) was a terrible king and got his line de-throned.

I’m aware of only these two lines that are specifically mentioned in the bible as being disqualified, and the writers of the NT managed to choose both of those lines for Jesus’s heritage. It’s almost as if they’re sending a secret signal to the Jewish people to stay away from this guy; he’s like poison.

That is something really interesting, and I didn't know that before. Um. Is there someone who's written this up somewhere with scripture references etc so that when the next Christian comes along we can hit 'em between the eyes with it? Big Grin

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-08-2015, 06:21 AM
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(18-08-2015 03:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  Ah, I didn't realise you were Jewish? Thanks for not being offended Smile I mean, I was being deliberately offensive so yeah... taking it into your stride indicates a worthwhile person, someone who can laugh at themselves, which is my major problem with most religious people. They're all (not all, as you have just proved) so goddamn serious Tongue

HAH! Actually, I misunderstood you. I thought you were using Yahoo as Jesus, but you meant Yahoo as YW/HW… a word we never pronounce, so that’s why your original intent went right over my head.

We call Jesus “Yushke”. That doesn’t mean that I don’t have a sense of humor, though! I promise that I do! … We Jews take pride in our ability to laugh at ourselves. =)

Our name for G-d is “Hashem,” which literally translates to “the name.” This designation is born out of a total paranoia about writing or saying anything which can be construed in anyway as being G-d’s actual name. … We do strange things, I know. =/
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18-08-2015, 06:39 AM
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(18-08-2015 06:21 AM)Aliza Wrote:  We do strange things, I know. =/

Hehe. That you do. But shiksas as a rule are pretty, so you are forgiven.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-08-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: Who was John the Baptist?
(16-08-2015 01:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So all I really learned was that he was an Essene which were of Buddhist persuasion and baptized Jesus in the order of the Essenes and then got beheaded because he wouldn't fuck some nasty bitch named Salome. What am I missing?
John the Baptist was the forerunner to Jesus of Nazareth. He just like Jesus did have use similar to Buddhism or an ascetic lifestyle their teachings were very similar and he was sacrificed or crucified with his head being logged off just as Jesus Christ was sacrificed or crucified it was for the same reasons. It was out of fear of the powers that be that they would lose their power.
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