Who was Saint Paul?
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16-08-2015, 07:32 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2015 09:13 PM by Free.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 03:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 01:42 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes ... I ... do.

You do not.

Really?

βίβλος γενεσεως ίησου χρίστου υίου δαβίδ ύίόύ άβράάμ

Dude, I type the fucking shit. It's easy for you to know i do, for all you need to do is translate that. So translate it, and tell me what the 1st word actually translates to in English so that you might understand what the lexicon actually says.

It's easy. Do it.

What I am saying here is that I study this stuff in the Koine Greek, and when you understand the language it gives you a tremendous advantage in understanding not only the idioms, lexicons, but also the culture. You cannot understand the culture from the modern English language. Not ever.

Therefore, the secret to understanding what Paul was talking about is to first understand who Paul was.


Quote:
Quote:True, but that is not all it meant.

You failed to mention any other meaning, since you knew nothing about it. We know it did not mean what you claimed it meant.

You do not know it also refers to Christ, and in particular, Paul's idea of a spiritual Christ?

Since Paul identifies it as a spiritual Christ, and Paul also says that there are other gods and other lords, then how you can possibly not understand that Paul sees his spiritual Christ as being a god?

Why do you think he says such things? Do I need to type out the Greek for that for you also, so you can then translate it and see what it really says?

Quote:
Quote:And this is where you just banged the stick of stupidity over your fucking head.

If Paul was a practicing Jew when he wrote his letters, then what the fuck does his theology represent? Judaism? Ya think?

Don't be a fool. As Bart Ehrman writes in his latest book, everything Paul writes about flows from his Jewish worldview, and utterly dependent on it. Your artificial, simplistic childish ''practicing Judaism" is seriously ignorant. He had to retain his Jewish roots as the Jerusalem community were Jews, and "Christians" remained Jews for decades, if not centuries. At the end of the First Century the High Priest
required the expulsion curses to be read. They were all still very much a sect of Judaism. Whether he "practiced" Judaism is irrelevant. Everything he wrote and did is dependent on it, including his concept of "the anointed one" (the messiah).

Do you think everyone must agree with Bart or Carrier? NO, NOT EVERYTHING Paul writes flows from his Judaic worldview, for he was heavily influenced by other religious beliefs, as Mark himself is discovering and telling you.

Paul was influenced by Judaism, Roman polytheism, Greek Mythology, Pre-Valentinus Gnosticism, and many cultural influences existing in Tarsus, where damn few Jews actually lived at the time. In fact, modern scholarship agrees with me that Koine Greek was Paul's first language, with Hebrew being secondary.

And THAT demonstrates that although his religion was Judaism, his fucking culture was ROMAN.

And you keep saying that the Christians remained Jews for centuries, but that is not true at all. Although originally they had Jewish roots, the new theology made Christians completely distinct from Jews, and we are not speaking about the Church of Jerusalem where James was, which ended in AD 70.

You can see it all in Paul's letters, where he opposes Peter to his face about the circumcision issue. He separates Jews from the Gentiles and defends the gentiles from the need to judaize. Read Galatians ffs.

Quote:
(16-08-2015 01:42 PM)Free Wrote:  It's called "polytheism", dude. The first example is right in the 1st line of the bible:

I'm well aware that Jews were (not polytheists, but) monolateralist polytheists. They acknowledged many gods , (as well as many divine beings), but they were NOT of the same status and no other divine being was equal to Yahweh), including his "sons".

And yet here we have Paul speaking of Christ as one who "thought it not robbery to be equal to God." Here is the entire section:

Php 2:5 - 2:8 For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Can't you see what Paul is saying there? He says the following:

1. Jesus Christ was existing in the form of a god.
2. Jesus Christ didn't think he was stealing anything from God by being God's equal.
3. This god, Jesus Christ, came in the form of a servant.
4. This god, Jesus Christ, was made into the likeness of a man.

Do you not understand the above? Paul is fucking telling you that Christ existed as a god before Jesus was ever born, otherwise he could not come into this world and be made in the form and likeness of a servant and a man.

How the fuck is that not obvious?

Quote:
(16-08-2015 01:42 PM)Free Wrote:  Judaism BEGINS with polytheism, and it doesn't fucking matter what the Jews say about it. It is what it is, and both Paul and Jesus knew it.

There is no "monochrome", except in your fantasy world.

That's not where Judaism "began", and clearly, (like many "historians") you think you know about Hebrew culture, and you don't. In fact you know almost nothing about it, as you have clearly demonstrated here today.

I find that hilarious, since at this very moment you are getting schooled with some exceptionally obvious observations about Paul's religious beliefs, written in his own words, of which you have no fucking clue what he's talking about.

And you want to be a historian? Are you fucking serious?

Quote:
(16-08-2015 01:42 PM)Free Wrote:  1Co_8:5 For though there are those who are called gods, whether in Heaven or in earth, as there are many gods and many lords,

Didn't see that coming, did you? No, you didn't.
Paul states clearly that there are many gods existing either in Heaven or in the earth, and despite his claim that, to him (next verse) that there is only 1 God and 1 Lord, there is no escaping the fact that he believed in the existence of other gods. His very words state exactly that.

So you now move the goal-posts. YOU claimed that Paul said Jesus was EQUAL to Yahweh "as a son". There is no evidence he ever said that, and there is no evidence that Jesus did either. And in the context of the time, it makes no sense at all. Paul said Jesus was "exalted" (raised up), and became the anointed one.

You're totally out of your depth here, dude.

You just got schooled further above.

Big Grin

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16-08-2015, 07:47 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 07:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 07:11 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  All gods are fictional products of controlling mens' imaginations.
I understand. You know that I won't argue with you about this, don't you?
I only like to discuss the book.

Guess what. It is the 21st century, and we can help people like you because we have the internet. Big Grin You might "only like to discuss the book," and the people in your church might "only like to discuss the book," but you have a whole world of information available to you. 100 years ago people like you were socially isolated and had access to limited information, so you often became the victims of church propaganda. Today you can break the cycle of indoctrination by being open-minded.Thumbsup
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16-08-2015, 08:02 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 04:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 01:42 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes ... I ... do.


True, but that is not all it meant.


And this is where you just banged the stick of stupidity over your fucking head.

If Paul was a practicing Jew when he wrote his letters, then what the fuck does his theology represent? Judaism? Ya think?

He mixed in some Judaism with his theology, and by simply doing that HE WAS NO LONGER A PRACTICING JEW.

Ya dumb bastard.


Just "no?" No explanation of why you think it's incorrect?

That's exactly what you do not understand. To the culture in the 1st century, that is exactly how they viewed things. Not just the Jews either, but all the entire monochrome.


Do you really think so? Well then ...

1Co_8:5 For though there are those who are called gods, whether in Heaven or in earth, as there are many gods and many lords,

Didn't see that coming, did you? No, you didn't.

Paul states clearly that there are many gods existing either in Heaven or in the earth, and despite his claim that, to him (next verse) that there is only 1 God and 1 Lord, there is no escaping the fact that he believed in the existence of other gods. His very words state exactly that.




It's called "polytheism", dude. The first example is right in the 1st line of the bible:

You see this:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

But it actually says this:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth.

Judaism BEGINS with polytheism, and it doesn't fucking matter what the Jews say about it. It is what it is, and both Paul and Jesus knew it.


No presentism used. Unlike you, I put myself back into the 1st century frame of mind, and view hings from that perspective. I study how these texts were translated into English, and look for missing idioms in the translation.

It's you who is using presentism dude.

Here is the passage. I'm not sure how you can say Paul thought there were many Gods. It seems to me he is just saying there are many false gods...and only one true god....

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Mark, it is quite reasonable for Paul to believe in one true God, and acknowledge the existence of other gods. Here is something you need to understand:

1st century Judaism did not state that no other gods existed. Monotheism is the position of placing faith in only 1 god, and does not take the position that no other gods exist.

You see this:

1Co_8:6 but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

But do you know that the word "only" above does not exist in the Koine Greek? It's an interpolation by Christian scribes. It simply isn't there, Mark. It reads like this:

1Co_8:6 but to us one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

The real text does not actually say there is only one God. It actually says that according to Paul and his followers, in regards to Christian beliefs, that the God they follow is the only one for them.

It does not exclude the existence of other gods.

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16-08-2015, 08:05 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 08:02 PM)Free Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 04:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here is the passage. I'm not sure how you can say Paul thought there were many Gods. It seems to me he is just saying there are many false gods...and only one true god....

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Mark, it is quite reasonable for Paul to believe in one true God, and acknowledge the existence of other gods. Here is something you need to understand:

1st century Judaism did not state that no other gods existed. Monotheism is the position of placing faith in only 1 god, and does not take the position that no other gods exist.

You see this:

1Co_8:6 but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

But do you know that the word "only" above does not exist in the Koine Greek? It's an interpolation by Christian scribes. It simply isn't there, Mark. It reads like this:

1Co_8:6 but to us one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

The real text does not actually say there is only one God. It actually says that according to Paul and his followers, in regards to Christian beliefs, that the God they follow is the only one for them.

It does not exclude the existence of other gods.

I believe Julian in Against the Galileans would agree with Free here. But of course it has been years since I read Julian. And my brain is not what it used to be.

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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16-08-2015, 08:05 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
I translated that line with google translator:

Paper Genesis Jesus Christ Son david son Abraham

Interesting. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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16-08-2015, 08:15 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 08:05 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 08:02 PM)Free Wrote:  Mark, it is quite reasonable for Paul to believe in one true God, and acknowledge the existence of other gods. Here is something you need to understand:

1st century Judaism did not state that no other gods existed. Monotheism is the position of placing faith in only 1 god, and does not take the position that no other gods exist.

You see this:

1Co_8:6 but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

But do you know that the word "only" above does not exist in the Koine Greek? It's an interpolation by Christian scribes. It simply isn't there, Mark. It reads like this:

1Co_8:6 but to us one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

The real text does not actually say there is only one God. It actually says that according to Paul and his followers, in regards to Christian beliefs, that the God they follow is the only one for them.

It does not exclude the existence of other gods.

I believe Julian in Against the Galileans would agree with Free here. But of course it has been years since I read Julian. And my brain is not what it used to be.

Excellent observation. I completely forgot about Julian for years and years.

Thanks.

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16-08-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 08:05 PM)kim Wrote:  I translated that line with google translator:

Paper Genesis Jesus Christ Son david son Abraham

Interesting. Drinking Beverage


It's Matthew 1:1

Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

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16-08-2015, 08:17 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2015 08:20 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 08:02 PM)Free Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 04:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here is the passage. I'm not sure how you can say Paul thought there were many Gods. It seems to me he is just saying there are many false gods...and only one true god....

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Mark, it is quite reasonable for Paul to believe in one true God, and acknowledge the existence of other gods. Here is something you need to understand:

1st century Judaism did not state that no other gods existed. Monotheism is the position of placing faith in only 1 god, and does not take the position that no other gods exist.

You see this:

1Co_8:6 but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

But do you know that the word "only" above does not exist in the Koine Greek? It's an interpolation by Christian scribes. It simply isn't there, Mark. It reads like this:

1Co_8:6 but to us one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

The real text does not actually say there is only one God. It actually says that according to Paul and his followers, in regards to Christian beliefs, that the God they follow is the only one for them.

It does not exclude the existence of other gods.

I hear you and am digesting what you say.

Could Paul simply have been acknowledging the existence of the belief in other gods? Yet not believe in their actual existence? I can't read Greek, that is how I would've read the English version of what Paul wrote.

By the way I agree with you that Paul was influenced by the pagan world. I do think
Bucky acknowledges that too. I do however think that Paul was arrogant enough to try to invent a new watered down version of Judaism. To the Jews he became like a Jew, but not a full blooded Jew. To those who weren't under the law (pagans) he became more like them, with a bit of Jew added in.

I suspect his overall intention was to weaken militaristic messianic Judaism. He used whatever means he could. One method was to reinvent the basic tenets of the religion. Another was to dilute the numbers practising Judaism with Gentiles.
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16-08-2015, 08:26 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 08:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 08:02 PM)Free Wrote:  Mark, it is quite reasonable for Paul to believe in one true God, and acknowledge the existence of other gods. Here is something you need to understand:

1st century Judaism did not state that no other gods existed. Monotheism is the position of placing faith in only 1 god, and does not take the position that no other gods exist.

You see this:

1Co_8:6 but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

But do you know that the word "only" above does not exist in the Koine Greek? It's an interpolation by Christian scribes. It simply isn't there, Mark. It reads like this:

1Co_8:6 but to us one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

The real text does not actually say there is only one God. It actually says that according to Paul and his followers, in regards to Christian beliefs, that the God they follow is the only one for them.

It does not exclude the existence of other gods.

I hear you and am digesting what you say.

Could Paul simply have been acknowledging the existence of the belief in other gods? Yet not believe in their actual existence? I can't read Greek, that is how I would've read the English version of what Paul wrote.

By the way I agree with you that Paul was influenced by the pagan world. I do think
Bucky acknowledges that too. I do however think that Paul was arrogant enough to try to invent a new watered down version of Judaism. To the Jews he became like a Jew, but not a full blooded Jew. To those who weren't under the law (pagans) he became more like them, with a bit of Jew added in.

I suspect his overall intention was to weaken militaristic messianic Judaism. He used whatever means he could. One method was to reinvent the basic tenets of the religion. Another was to dilute the numbers practising Judaism with Gentiles.

You are right there, Mark.

Here:

1Co 9:19 For though I am free from all, yet I have made myself servant to all, so that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And to the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain the Jews. To those who are under the Law, I became as under the Law, so that I might gain those who are under the Law.
1Co 9:21 To those who are outside Law, I became as outside Law (not being outside law to God, but under the Law to Christ), so that I might gain those who are outside Law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak I became as the weak, so that I might gain the weak. I am made all things to all men, so that I might by all means save some.

You can see now that, depending on who was facing Paul, he became a Jew, or became a Gentile, or became whatever was required to get his point across.

Today he's a Jew, and tomorrow a Gentile. Next week the stupid bastard will probably be a fucking Mormon.

Big Grin

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16-08-2015, 08:41 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2015 08:47 PM by Free.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 08:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 08:02 PM)Free Wrote:  Mark, it is quite reasonable for Paul to believe in one true God, and acknowledge the existence of other gods. Here is something you need to understand:

1st century Judaism did not state that no other gods existed. Monotheism is the position of placing faith in only 1 god, and does not take the position that no other gods exist.

You see this:

1Co_8:6 but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

But do you know that the word "only" above does not exist in the Koine Greek? It's an interpolation by Christian scribes. It simply isn't there, Mark. It reads like this:

1Co_8:6 but to us one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

The real text does not actually say there is only one God. It actually says that according to Paul and his followers, in regards to Christian beliefs, that the God they follow is the only one for them.

It does not exclude the existence of other gods.

I hear you and am digesting what you say.

Could Paul simply have been acknowledging the existence of the belief in other gods? Yet not believe in their actual existence? I can't read Greek, that is how I would've read the English version of what Paul wrote.

By the way I agree with you that Paul was influenced by the pagan world. I do think
Bucky acknowledges that too. I do however think that Paul was arrogant enough to try to invent a new watered down version of Judaism. To the Jews he became like a Jew, but not a full blooded Jew. To those who weren't under the law (pagans) he became more like them, with a bit of Jew added in.

I suspect his overall intention was to weaken militaristic messianic Judaism. He used whatever means he could. One method was to reinvent the basic tenets of the religion. Another was to dilute the numbers practising Judaism with Gentiles.

You should use some of the same tools I use, since most are free.

Go get e-Sword, install it, then go to its download tab, select Bibles, then on the list select Modern King James version, then click the Download tab on that Window. It will download that bible version, and then suggest you restart. Use the MKJV tab on the program to access the Modern King James Version.

Whenever you are reading the NT, whenever you see italicized words, it means those words were not there in the original Greek, as so:

1Co 9:23 And this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I might be partaker of it with you.

The words "with you" do not exist in the Greek. But that doesn't mean the text doesn't imply them. Sometimes it does, sometimes its a guess. Knowledge of the lexicon of the period is critical.

A lot of times it was Christians making the calculated guesses and guessing in favor of their beliefs and doctrine. They were guessing with bias.

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