Who was Saint Paul?
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15-08-2015, 07:44 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Interesting read and very good description of the that cult leader. I want to nitpick one thing. Can you stop repeating the name Paul in every sentence you make it's extremely repetitive. look at the following sentences:

Paul was the first known Christian author whose writings have survived. Paul had a burning need to tell anyone who would listen all about his theology, so he became a traveling evangelist. Paul probably wandered around half the Roman Empire for twenty years or so, preaching his version of religious truth.

Paul wrote letters to many communities, some of which have survived. They are very interesting, as we can read Paul’s authentic thoughts and emotions, and they are the letters that would contain the first formulas for Christian theology.

The Gospels did not influence Paul; they could not have, because they did not exist at the time Paul wrote. Paul wrote first. In fact, the reverse is true; Paul’s writings undoubtedly influenced the canonical Gospels.

Paul is traditionally credited with writing thirteen of the twenty- seven titles in the New Testament.


There is ten mention of the name paul in those ten successive sentences. You might want to work on that point. On the content though this is very solid. Thanks!
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15-08-2015, 07:47 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
There are at least two Pauls in Acts. They have different philosophies, and scholars have long realized the missionary trips mapped and dated as they are presented, are impossible. The first Paul presented in Acts is left in a location, without further comment for a long time. Then much later, a Paul (re)appears, somewhere else.

It's very fishy, that a man who claims to have been a student of the famous Gamaliel in Jerusalem, is mentioned nowhere by other (not one) Jewish scholars of the time as being an apostate Jew. Something reeks in Denmark.

Paul's concept of sin and righteousness is really more Zoroastrian, (as in Mithraism which had an important center in Tarsus) than Hebrew.

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15-08-2015, 07:52 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 09:50 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 07:33 PM)Free Wrote:  Hey Mark, I am 1/4 the way through. Not bad so far, not bad.

Some things ...

Quote:In all his writings Paul did not express any pleasure or awe in associating with Yeshua’s family or followers. This is strong circumstantial evidence that Yeshua never was Paul’s Christ.

This may be overstated, something scholars Bart Ehrman and Richard Carrier do, and should be avoided. Overstating things demonstrates bias, and you need to stay as neutral as possible to achieve credibility. You may want to reword this to something to the effect of:

"This could be viewed as good circumstantial evidence that Yeshua never was Paul’s Christ."

Try to stay as neutral as possible.

The following needs to be addressed clearly:

Is Yeshua the prototype for Paul's Christ? Was Yeshua the inspiration for Paul's Christ? If not, what or who was?

Quote:It is true that “Paul” mentions “Jesus” many times, yet “Jesus” may have been edited into Paul’s writings, where he had written only

“Christ.”

Supporting evidence must be presented, otherwise any scholarly review will destroy this immediately, and damage the credibility of the book.

More to come ...

Thanks for your comments.

Re that you think the following is too strongly worded..."This is strong circumstantial evidence that Yeshua never was Paul’s Christ."

I hear you...but I disagree. We have six lengthy letters from Paul. If Jesus was Paul's main man, he would've made it clear, and Paul would've been a fanboy of the disciples, including Mary and the other Mary. He didn't and he wasn't.

Yes you are right about me needing more evidence for the "Jesus" insertion theory. In the book I actually mention that more circumstantial evidence will be presented in later chapters. I don't have any direct evidence. I'm just having an educated guess. Perhaps I could have made more of that point.
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15-08-2015, 08:00 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 07:44 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Interesting read and very good description of the that cult leader. I want to nitpick one thing. Can you stop repeating the name Paul in every sentence you make it's extremely repetitive. look at the following sentences:

Paul was the first known Christian author whose writings have survived. Paul had a burning need to tell anyone who would listen all about his theology, so he became a traveling evangelist. Paul probably wandered around half the Roman Empire for twenty years or so, preaching his version of religious truth.

Paul wrote letters to many communities, some of which have survived. They are very interesting, as we can read Paul’s authentic thoughts and emotions, and they are the letters that would contain the first formulas for Christian theology.

The Gospels did not influence Paul; they could not have, because they did not exist at the time Paul wrote. Paul wrote first. In fact, the reverse is true; Paul’s writings undoubtedly influenced the canonical Gospels.

Paul is traditionally credited with writing thirteen of the twenty- seven titles in the New Testament.


There is ten mention of the name paul in those ten successive sentences. You might want to work on that point. On the content though this is very solid. Thanks!

Ok. I agree. Yeah...funnily enough one editor made me change "he" to "Paul." I can't win!Huh
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15-08-2015, 08:04 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 07:40 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 07:36 PM)julep Wrote:  Thanks for this post!

I think Paul has been far more influential to the course of Christianity than Jesus has.

Personally, I suspect Jesus is a fictional character. So yes, Saul or Paul is the founder of xianity. If I am correct. Is that okay Free? Wink

And he seems to have been a mental case.
"And he seems to have been a mental case."

Oh yes...I'll get to that later...
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15-08-2015, 08:10 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 07:40 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 07:36 PM)julep Wrote:  Thanks for this post!

I think Paul has been far more influential to the course of Christianity than Jesus has.

Personally, I suspect Jesus is a fictional character. So yes, Saul or Paul is the founder of xianity. If I am correct. Is that okay Free? Wink

And he seems to have been a mental case.

I'm agnostic on whether Jesus existed historically. Paul strongly influenced the direction of Christianity, but from what I've read, most of the Christian communities to which he writes preceded Paul. Christianity wasn't the same after Paul got his hands on it, though, so he's quite the transformative figure.

Paul is a much more interesting and relatable character than Jesus. His temper, pride, fear, and discomfort with human sexuality leap off the page, but so do his drive for understanding and his conviction that he has been made a new man by his experiences.

Another poster suggested there were two Pauls, and I agree that's highly possible. Whichever Paul wrote the epistles is the guy who turned Christianity into a religion capable of taking over civilizations.

To me, Paul is one of the two most "round" characters in the Bible; the other one is David of the Old Testament. Both are interesting, flawed, and the kind of people one would want to avoid in real life. And, yeah, Paul is completely batshit insane.
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15-08-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:“Paul” does talk about what Christ allegedly said on the night he was betrayed, in the first letter to the Corinthians, but this whole passage is unique in that regard and therefore it too is suspiciously “unPauline.”

Why is it unique? Explain why it may be unPauline. Find some evidence to support these assertions, even if it is circumstantial.

Quote:Whether Paul considered his Christ to literally be the equal to God is a matter for much debate.

Now this is an understatement. Paul absolutely believed his idea of Christ was not only God, but also equal in every way. Look below:

Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Quote: Paul did, however, claim that Christ had a human father—

“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3–4, KJV)

—which is inconsistent with his claim that Jesus was the son of God, because it is impossible to have two fathers. Paul was frequently inconsistent.

Mark, this is universally understood in the scholarly community as something known as the duality of Jesus Christ. In the quote above, Paul is speaking about the human side of Jesus Christ ie; the human Jesus part. However, in the very next verse you see this:

Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit

You will notice in Romans 1.3, he says, "according to the flesh," which literally means "On account of being human," and in Romans 1.4 he says, "according to the spirit," which means "On account of being a spirit."

Paul's theology is:

Jesus bar Joseph = Human, "Son of Man."
Christ = Spirit, "Son of God."


Now you know why the gospels use both Son of Man and Son of God interchangeably, because at times when the attributed words of Jesus say anything regarding the two, he is portrayed as speaking either about his own human part known as Jesus, or about the spirit of Christ that supposedly dwelt within him.

Think about this Mark, because knowing and carefully considering this can seriously help your hypothesis that the Gospels were written with Pauline theology in mind.

Not even Christians know or actually understand this.

More later ...

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15-08-2015, 08:25 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 07:44 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Interesting read and very good description of the that cult leader. I want to nitpick one thing. Can you stop repeating the name Paul in every sentence you make it's extremely repetitive. look at the following sentences:

Paul was the first known Christian author whose writings have survived. Paul had a burning need to tell anyone who would listen all about his theology, so he became a traveling evangelist. Paul probably wandered around half the Roman Empire for twenty years or so, preaching his version of religious truth.

Paul wrote letters to many communities, some of which have survived. They are very interesting, as we can read Paul’s authentic thoughts and emotions, and they are the letters that would contain the first formulas for Christian theology.

The Gospels did not influence Paul; they could not have, because they did not exist at the time Paul wrote. Paul wrote first. In fact, the reverse is true; Paul’s writings undoubtedly influenced the canonical Gospels.

Paul is traditionally credited with writing thirteen of the twenty- seven titles in the New Testament.


There is ten mention of the name paul in those ten successive sentences. You might want to work on that point. On the content though this is very solid. Thanks!

Ok. I agree. Yeah...funnily enough one editor made me change "he" to "Paul." I can't win!Huh

Try weaving a few other nouns--e.g., "the apostle"--in as well as the pronoun and you might avoid the problem. Ultimately your own ear should be your guide, until/unless you have sold the book and have a single editor to satisfy.

Another recommendation: expanding the paragraphs to add colorful and relevant information will also let you keep putting in "Paul" and "he" without the words feeling so repetitive. For example, I would love some extra information in the paragraph about Paul's wanderings around the Empire. Estimates of the distance Paul covered/what territories are included in the Empire, a sentence or two about whether there were lots of traveling missionaries at the time, pushing other cults, etc., etc. A post on TTA isn't necessarily the place for expanding in this fashion, bare bones of your argument are perfectly appropriate in this space, but in a book-length work digressions that add context and interesting information are welcome.
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15-08-2015, 08:30 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Mark Fulton:
"Christians may be surprised to learn that it was also Paul who first documented the idea that Yahweh had a son."

Alla:
Paul didn't teach this false doctrine.
Paul knew who Yahweh was. Yahweh was God Who said "I AM".
Jesus said to Jews "I AM"
Romans 8: 3 - where did Paul say that Yahweh had Son?

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15-08-2015, 08:36 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Mark Fulton:

Paul contended that his Christ was divine and existed in heaven before taking on a human form and living on earth. How this Christ got to earth Paul does not say, as he provides no birth story. Paul did, however, claim that Christ had a human father—
“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3–4, KJV)
—which is inconsistent with his claim that Jesus was the son of God, because it is impossible to have two fathers. Paul was frequently inconsistent.

Alla:

Paul did not say that Jesus had human father. Paul said that Jesus was made of the seed of David. Jesus had human mother and she had the seed of David. Through human mother it was seed of David in Jesus.

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