Who was Saint Paul?
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15-08-2015, 08:43 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark Fulton:

Paul contended that his Christ was divine and existed in heaven before taking on a human form and living on earth. How this Christ got to earth Paul does not say, as he provides no birth story. Paul did, however, claim that Christ had a human father—
“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3–4, KJV)
—which is inconsistent with his claim that Jesus was the son of God, because it is impossible to have two fathers. Paul was frequently inconsistent.

Alla:

Paul did not say that Jesus had human father. Paul said that Jesus was made of the seed of David. Jesus had human mother and she had the seed of David. Through human mother it was seed of David in Jesus.

Mark,

Alla is correct here.

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15-08-2015, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 09:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:17 PM)Free Wrote:  Now this is an understatement. Paul absolutely believed his idea of Christ was not only God, but also equal in every way. Look below:
Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, Who,being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

No. Paul here is quoting some form of ritual "hymn" or poem. The words speak of the god as "other" and in Hebrew culture "divinity" (as all members of the heavenly host were *divine beings*), does not mean Christ "was god". That idea to a Jew was absolutely impossible.

Philippians 2:9 "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name".

Does it say he exalted himself ? No. Does it say he was made "divine" ? No. If he "was god" he could have done that (himself).
There is outside agency from a superior being implied. Nowhere does it say Jesus *is* Yahweh, the Father.
It says he was "exalted" (raised up) ... just like all the other Jewish apocalyptic heroes who died for their causes had been "exalted" (raised up).

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15-08-2015, 09:04 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please

Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please

Mark Fulton:
Paul proposed that the primary purpose of existence was to get into heaven by becoming “one with Christ,” and thereby receive the “gift of eternal life.” (Romans 6; 23.) According to Paul, anyone who did not have faith in Christ could not be saved, so would not get into heaven. This rather contrived, complicated and confusing scheme became known as the doctrine of justification by faith.
Alla:
there is nothing confusing about this principle IF you understand what " to be saved through faith" means. When you understand what it means to be saved through faith than you understand why no one can have eternal life without it(faith)

Mark Fulton:
MF said that Paul promised a free pass to salvation.
Alla:
No, he didn't . Faith in Christ is big work. Sometimes it is not very easy work.

Mark Fulton:
The whole argument is irrational. Why would the Son of God need to sacrifice himself to appease his father, who was also himself, for the sins of the world? Is not sacrificing anyone a pointless, barbaric act that kills an innocent scapegoat? Why would faith in this sacrifice be a ticket for entry into heaven?
Alla:
Good questions.
Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread.
Paul didn't teach that Son is Father Himself.


Mark Fulton:
Yet Paul claimed sin can be something one is born with, like a birth defect.
Alla:
Really? epistle, chapter, verses

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15-08-2015, 09:06 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Alla, go take a class. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-08-2015, 09:48 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:10 PM)julep Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 07:40 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Personally, I suspect Jesus is a fictional character. So yes, Saul or Paul is the founder of xianity. If I am correct. Is that okay Free? Wink

And he seems to have been a mental case.

I'm agnostic on whether Jesus existed historically. Paul strongly influenced the direction of Christianity, but from what I've read, most of the Christian communities to which he writes preceded Paul. Christianity wasn't the same after Paul got his hands on it, though, so he's quite the transformative figure.

Paul is a much more interesting and relatable character than Jesus. His temper, pride, fear, and discomfort with human sexuality leap off the page, but so do his drive for understanding and his conviction that he has been made a new man by his experiences.

Another poster suggested there were two Pauls, and I agree that's highly possible. Whichever Paul wrote the epistles is the guy who turned Christianity into a religion capable of taking over civilizations.

To me, Paul is one of the two most "round" characters in the Bible; the other one is David of the Old Testament. Both are interesting, flawed, and the kind of people one would want to avoid in real life. And, yeah, Paul is completely batshit insane.

"And, yeah, Paul is completely batshit insane."

This made me laugh. Bowing

Yet in one sense it is not funny...because Christians take his writing so seriously.
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15-08-2015, 10:02 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:17 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:“Paul” does talk about what Christ allegedly said on the night he was betrayed, in the first letter to the Corinthians, but this whole passage is unique in that regard and therefore it too is suspiciously “unPauline.”

Why is it unique? Explain why it may be unPauline. Find some evidence to support these assertions, even if it is circumstantial.

Quote:Whether Paul considered his Christ to literally be the equal to God is a matter for much debate.

Now this is an understatement. Paul absolutely believed his idea of Christ was not only God, but also equal in every way. Look below:

Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Quote: Paul did, however, claim that Christ had a human father—

“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3–4, KJV)

—which is inconsistent with his claim that Jesus was the son of God, because it is impossible to have two fathers. Paul was frequently inconsistent.

Mark, this is universally understood in the scholarly community as something known as the duality of Jesus Christ. In the quote above, Paul is speaking about the human side of Jesus Christ ie; the human Jesus part. However, in the very next verse you see this:

Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit

You will notice in Romans 1.3, he says, "according to the flesh," which literally means "On account of being human," and in Romans 1.4 he says, "according to the spirit," which means "On account of being a spirit."

Paul's theology is:

Jesus bar Joseph = Human, "Son of Man."
Christ = Spirit, "Son of God."


Now you know why the gospels use both Son of Man and Son of God interchangeably, because at times when the attributed words of Jesus say anything regarding the two, he is portrayed as speaking either about his own human part known as Jesus, or about the spirit of Christ that supposedly dwelt within him.

Think about this Mark, because knowing and carefully considering this can seriously help your hypothesis that the Gospels were written with Pauline theology in mind.

Not even Christians know or actually understand this.

More later ...

Thanks again.

Re "Why is it unique? Explain why it may be unPauline. Find some evidence to support these assertions, even if it is circumstantial."

It is unique in that it is the only place in any of Paul's letters where Paul describes what Jesus allegedly said or did. It is, therefore, very "unPauline"

By the way, Carrier thinks that this is an interpolation too, although he can't prove it.

I agree with you that Paul (or an interpolator) was talking about the "duality" of Christ. My point was that the concept is ridiculous. You can't have two fathers... it is inconsistent with what we know of the real world. Paul might like to pretend you can, but the fact is you can't.
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15-08-2015, 10:18 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark Fulton:
"Christians may be surprised to learn that it was also Paul who first documented the idea that Yahweh had a son."

Alla:
Paul didn't teach this false doctrine.
Paul knew who Yahweh was. Yahweh was God Who said "I AM".
Jesus said to Jews "I AM"
Romans 8: 3 - where did Paul say that Yahweh had Son?



Romans 8:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Galatians 4 King James Version (KJV)

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
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15-08-2015, 10:29 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 10:46 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 09:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please

Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please

Mark Fulton:
Paul proposed that the primary purpose of existence was to get into heaven by becoming “one with Christ,” and thereby receive the “gift of eternal life.” (Romans 6; 23.) According to Paul, anyone who did not have faith in Christ could not be saved, so would not get into heaven. This rather contrived, complicated and confusing scheme became known as the doctrine of justification by faith.
Alla:
there is nothing confusing about this principle IF you understand what " to be saved through faith" means. When you understand what it means to be saved through faith than you understand why no one can have eternal life without it(faith)

Mark Fulton:
MF said that Paul promised a free pass to salvation.
Alla:
No, he didn't . Faith in Christ is big work. Sometimes it is not very easy work.

Mark Fulton:
The whole argument is irrational. Why would the Son of God need to sacrifice himself to appease his father, who was also himself, for the sins of the world? Is not sacrificing anyone a pointless, barbaric act that kills an innocent scapegoat? Why would faith in this sacrifice be a ticket for entry into heaven?
Alla:
Good questions.
Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread.
Paul didn't teach that Son is Father Himself.


Mark Fulton:
Yet Paul claimed sin can be something one is born with, like a birth defect.
Alla:
Really? epistle, chapter, verses


"Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please"


Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
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15-08-2015, 10:37 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 09:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please

Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please

Mark Fulton:
Paul proposed that the primary purpose of existence was to get into heaven by becoming “one with Christ,” and thereby receive the “gift of eternal life.” (Romans 6; 23.) According to Paul, anyone who did not have faith in Christ could not be saved, so would not get into heaven. This rather contrived, complicated and confusing scheme became known as the doctrine of justification by faith.
Alla:
there is nothing confusing about this principle IF you understand what " to be saved through faith" means. When you understand what it means to be saved through faith than you understand why no one can have eternal life without it(faith)

Mark Fulton:
MF said that Paul promised a free pass to salvation.
Alla:
No, he didn't . Faith in Christ is big work. Sometimes it is not very easy work.

Mark Fulton:
The whole argument is irrational. Why would the Son of God need to sacrifice himself to appease his father, who was also himself, for the sins of the world? Is not sacrificing anyone a pointless, barbaric act that kills an innocent scapegoat? Why would faith in this sacrifice be a ticket for entry into heaven?
Alla:
Good questions.
Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread.
Paul didn't teach that Son is Father Himself.


Mark Fulton:
Yet Paul claimed sin can be something one is born with, like a birth defect.
Alla:
Really? epistle, chapter, verses

"Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please"

Hebrews 10;10 King James Bible

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
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15-08-2015, 10:44 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 09:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please

Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please

Mark Fulton:
Paul proposed that the primary purpose of existence was to get into heaven by becoming “one with Christ,” and thereby receive the “gift of eternal life.” (Romans 6; 23.) According to Paul, anyone who did not have faith in Christ could not be saved, so would not get into heaven. This rather contrived, complicated and confusing scheme became known as the doctrine of justification by faith.
Alla:
there is nothing confusing about this principle IF you understand what " to be saved through faith" means. When you understand what it means to be saved through faith than you understand why no one can have eternal life without it(faith)

Mark Fulton:
MF said that Paul promised a free pass to salvation.
Alla:
No, he didn't . Faith in Christ is big work. Sometimes it is not very easy work.

Mark Fulton:
The whole argument is irrational. Why would the Son of God need to sacrifice himself to appease his father, who was also himself, for the sins of the world? Is not sacrificing anyone a pointless, barbaric act that kills an innocent scapegoat? Why would faith in this sacrifice be a ticket for entry into heaven?
Alla:
Good questions.
Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread.
Paul didn't teach that Son is Father Himself.


Mark Fulton:
Yet Paul claimed sin can be something one is born with, like a birth defect.
Alla:
Really? epistle, chapter, verses

"Mark Fulton:
MF said that Paul promised a free pass to salvation.
Alla:
No, he didn't . Faith in Christ is big work. Sometimes it is not very easy work."

Wrong again Alla. You don't understand Paul...

Paul claimed:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2; 16, KJV) and

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Gal. 3:13, KJV) and

“Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)
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