Who was Saint Paul?
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15-08-2015, 10:49 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 09:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please

Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please

Mark Fulton:
Paul proposed that the primary purpose of existence was to get into heaven by becoming “one with Christ,” and thereby receive the “gift of eternal life.” (Romans 6; 23.) According to Paul, anyone who did not have faith in Christ could not be saved, so would not get into heaven. This rather contrived, complicated and confusing scheme became known as the doctrine of justification by faith.
Alla:
there is nothing confusing about this principle IF you understand what " to be saved through faith" means. When you understand what it means to be saved through faith than you understand why no one can have eternal life without it(faith)

Mark Fulton:
MF said that Paul promised a free pass to salvation.
Alla:
No, he didn't . Faith in Christ is big work. Sometimes it is not very easy work.

Mark Fulton:
The whole argument is irrational. Why would the Son of God need to sacrifice himself to appease his father, who was also himself, for the sins of the world? Is not sacrificing anyone a pointless, barbaric act that kills an innocent scapegoat? Why would faith in this sacrifice be a ticket for entry into heaven?
Alla:
Good questions.
Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread.
Paul didn't teach that Son is Father Himself.


Mark Fulton:
Yet Paul claimed sin can be something one is born with, like a birth defect.
Alla:
Really? epistle, chapter, verses

"Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread."

Utter nonsense. Try using that argument in a court of law and you'll be laughed at.
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15-08-2015, 10:57 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 11:11 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:43 PM)Free Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 08:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark Fulton:

Paul contended that his Christ was divine and existed in heaven before taking on a human form and living on earth. How this Christ got to earth Paul does not say, as he provides no birth story. Paul did, however, claim that Christ had a human father—
“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3–4, KJV)
—which is inconsistent with his claim that Jesus was the son of God, because it is impossible to have two fathers. Paul was frequently inconsistent.

Alla:

Paul did not say that Jesus had human father. Paul said that Jesus was made of the seed of David. Jesus had human mother and she had the seed of David. Through human mother it was seed of David in Jesus.

Mark,

Alla is correct here.

Mmmmmm.

I must admit I never thought that Paul could've been referring to Mary.

But....Jewish lineage wasn't thought of as being transferred through the mother, only the father. Mum was only the "nest" where the seed (ie the embryo) was planted.

Many years later a big deal was made of Joseph's lineage in two of the Gospels to prove Jeebus was of the seed of David...not Mary's lineage.

Bucky...what's your opinion on this?
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15-08-2015, 11:06 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:17 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:“Paul” does talk about what Christ allegedly said on the night he was betrayed, in the first letter to the Corinthians, but this whole passage is unique in that regard and therefore it too is suspiciously “unPauline.”

Why is it unique? Explain why it may be unPauline. Find some evidence to support these assertions, even if it is circumstantial.

Quote:Whether Paul considered his Christ to literally be the equal to God is a matter for much debate.

Now this is an understatement. Paul absolutely believed his idea of Christ was not only God, but also equal in every way. Look below:

Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Quote: Paul did, however, claim that Christ had a human father—

“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3–4, KJV)

—which is inconsistent with his claim that Jesus was the son of God, because it is impossible to have two fathers. Paul was frequently inconsistent.

Mark, this is universally understood in the scholarly community as something known as the duality of Jesus Christ. In the quote above, Paul is speaking about the human side of Jesus Christ ie; the human Jesus part. However, in the very next verse you see this:

Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit

You will notice in Romans 1.3, he says, "according to the flesh," which literally means "On account of being human," and in Romans 1.4 he says, "according to the spirit," which means "On account of being a spirit."

Paul's theology is:

Jesus bar Joseph = Human, "Son of Man."
Christ = Spirit, "Son of God."


Now you know why the gospels use both Son of Man and Son of God interchangeably, because at times when the attributed words of Jesus say anything regarding the two, he is portrayed as speaking either about his own human part known as Jesus, or about the spirit of Christ that supposedly dwelt within him.

Think about this Mark, because knowing and carefully considering this can seriously help your hypothesis that the Gospels were written with Pauline theology in mind.

Not even Christians know or actually understand this.

More later ...

"Paul's theology is:

Jesus bar Joseph = Human, "Son of Man." "

Um.....dunno about that. I'm not convinced Paul thought his Christ had a human dad (Joseph).

What is more, Paul never mentions Joseph, or Mary for that matter.

Don't you find it rather odd that Paul is such a Christ fanboy, yet he doesn't bother to mention Joseph or Mary?

PS... I can't help but suspect Paul's comment about Christ having a parent "according to the flesh" is an interpolation.
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15-08-2015, 11:16 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 08:17 PM)Free Wrote:  Now this is an understatement. Paul absolutely believed his idea of Christ was not only God, but also equal in every way. Look below:
Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, Who,being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

No. Paul here is quoting some form of ritual "hymn" or poem. The words speak of the god as "other" and in Hebrew culture "divinity" (as all members of the heavenly host were *divine beings*), does not mean Christ "was god". That idea to a Jew was absolutely impossible.

Philippians 2:9 "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name".

Does it say he exalted himself ? No. Does it say he was made "divine" ? No. If he "was god" he could have done that (himself).
There is outside agency from a superior being implied. Nowhere does it say Jesus *is* Yahweh, the Father.
It says he was "exalted" (raised up) ... just like all the other Jewish apocalyptic heroes who died for their causes had been "exalted" (raised up).

That's interesting.

I remember spending many hours trying to work out whether Paul thought his Christ was equal to God, even on this forum, when some guy with a PhD in this sort of nonsense was quite vocal, and I couldn't arrive at a conclusion, so I didn't commit myself.
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16-08-2015, 12:17 AM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2015 12:21 AM by Alla.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Alla:
Romans 8: 3 - where did Paul say that Yahweh had Son?

Mark Fulton:
Romans 8:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Galatians 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Alla: I don't see where in those verses Paul said that name of God Who sent His own Son was Yahweh?
Jesus(Son) said: "Before Abraham was, I AM"
I AM is Yahweh
..............

Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please"
Mark Fulton:
Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Alla: Where is here obsession with sin? Paul said that all men are mortal(death passed upon all men) / Adam and Eve became mortal.
mortal beings can not procreate immortal beings. And all mortal beings sin.

............

Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please"
Mark Fulton:
Hebrews 10;10 King James Bible
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Alla:
Where did Paul say here that Christ offered His life TO GOD?
........

Alla:
Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread."
Mark Fulton:
Utter nonsense. Try using that argument in a court of law and you'll be laughed at.
Alla:
Men's court of law is not God's court of law.
If God Father forgives me completely or even partially He will rob Justice. Justice for sin is death according to Scriptures.
Gods do not rob Justice. They can not rob Justice and continue to be Gods.
So, Atonement makes it possible that Mercy won't rob Justice.

...........

Mark Fulton:
Don't you find it rather odd that Paul is such Christ fanboy, it doesn't bother to mention Joseph or Mary?
Alla:
may be he did( in epistles we don't have.)
According to Paul we don't have all his writings.

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16-08-2015, 12:21 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 12:17 AM)Alla Wrote:  Alla:
Romans 8: 3 - where did Paul say that Yahweh had Son?

Mark Fulton:
Romans 8:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Galatians 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Alla: I don't see where in those verses Paul said that name of God Who sent His own Son was Yahweh?
Jesus(Son) said: "Before Abraham was, I AM"
I AM is Yahweh
..............

Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please"
Mark Fulton:
Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Alla: Where is here obsession with sin? Paul said that all men are mortal(death passed upon all men) / Adam and Eve became mortal.
mortal beings can not procreate immortal beings. And all mortal beings sin.

............

Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please"
Mark Fulton:
Hebrews 10;10 King James Bible
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Alla:
Where did Paul say here that Christ offered His life TO GOD?
........

Alla:
Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread."
Mark Fulton:
Utter nonsense. Try using that argument in a court of law and you'll be laughed at.
Alla:
Men's court of law is not God's court of law.
If God Father forgives me completely or even partially He will rob Justice. Justice for sin is death. This what Scripture(God) says
Gods do not rob Justice. They can not rob Justice and continue to be Gods.
So, Atonement makes it possible that Mercy won't rob Justice.

...........

Mark Fulton:
Don't you find it rather odd that Paul is such Christ fanboy, it doesn't bother to mention Joseph or Mary?
Alla:
may be he did( in epistles we don't have.)
According to Paul we don't have all his writings.

Xianity is so stupid! Big Grin

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16-08-2015, 12:23 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
I agree that this is stupid.
Gospel of Jesus Christ doesn't teach this.

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16-08-2015, 12:50 AM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2015 12:54 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 12:17 AM)Alla Wrote:  Alla:
Romans 8: 3 - where did Paul say that Yahweh had Son?

Mark Fulton:
Romans 8:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Galatians 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Alla: I don't see where in those verses Paul said that name of God Who sent His own Son was Yahweh?
Jesus(Son) said: "Before Abraham was, I AM"
I AM is Yahweh
..............

Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please"
Mark Fulton:
Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Alla: Where is here obsession with sin? Paul said that all men are mortal(death passed upon all men) / Adam and Eve became mortal.
mortal beings can not procreate immortal beings. And all mortal beings sin.

............

Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please"
Mark Fulton:
Hebrews 10;10 King James Bible
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Alla:
Where did Paul say here that Christ offered His life TO GOD?
........

Alla:
Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread."
Mark Fulton:
Utter nonsense. Try using that argument in a court of law and you'll be laughed at.
Alla:
Men's court of law is not God's court of law.
If God Father forgives me completely or even partially He will rob Justice. Justice for sin is death according to Scriptures.
Gods do not rob Justice. They can not rob Justice and continue to be Gods.
So, Atonement makes it possible that Mercy won't rob Justice.

...........

Mark Fulton:
Don't you find it rather odd that Paul is such Christ fanboy, it doesn't bother to mention Joseph or Mary?
Alla:
may be he did( in epistles we don't have.)
According to Paul we don't have all his writings.

I got the following from here.. http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/qu...ame-yahweh

"The only New Testament book to use the name (Yahweh) is Revelation, four times in chapter 19, embedded in the Greek word ἁλληλουϊά (hallelouia).

This is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase הַֽלְלוּ־יָֽהּ (halelu-Yah).

'Yah' is the abbreviated form of Yahweh, which is sometimes also used in the Hebrew scriptures (mostly in the Psalms, but a few times in Exodus and Isaiah), but this is the name nonetheless.

Otherwise the New Testament authors follow the traditional custom of translating Yahweh as κύριος ('lord') whenever they quote the parts of the Hebrew scriptures that use the name."

What is more, the opening 5 verses of Paul's most famous epistle, are this...
Romans 1:1-5King James Version (KJV)

"1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: "

"God" is clearly Yahweh ( Yahweh had prophets who wrote in the OT ie the holy scriptures), and Paul makes it clear "God" has a son, Jesus Christ.
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16-08-2015, 12:55 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Mark Fulton:
Paul merely replaced Yahweh with Christ, to fit with his own manufactured theology.
Alla:
Jesus said to Jews: before Abraham was I AM.
I AM is God Yahweh.
..........
Mark Fulton:
One of Paul’s main themes differentiating his theology from that of the Jews was that Gentiles could be God’s special people too. Paul wrote,

“Well, we are those people; whether we were Jews or pagans we are the ones he has called. That is exactly what God says in Hosea: ‘I shall say to a people that was not mine, ‘you are my people,’ and to a nation I never loved ‘I love you’” (Rom. 9:24, NJB.)

However a reading of chapters one and two of Hosea reveals that “God” was not referring to Gentiles, but Jews whom he was accepting back under his wing after a misdemeanor. Paul changed the meaning of Scripture to sell his own story to Gentiles living in Rome.
Alla:
Paul did not teach that Gentiles are God's special people. He was teaching that Gentiles become grafted branch of olive tree( house of Israel). Every Gentile who makes a covenant with God, becomes part of God's people - house of Israel.
Jews who reject God are not God's people any more and Gentiles who do not accept God are not God's people.
But Jews who accept God back and Gentiles who accept God become God's covenant people.
They are all Israelites - Jews(natural branch of olive tree) and non-Jews(grafted branch of olive tree).

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16-08-2015, 01:04 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 12:17 AM)Alla Wrote:  Alla:
Romans 8: 3 - where did Paul say that Yahweh had Son?

Mark Fulton:
Romans 8:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Galatians 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Alla: I don't see where in those verses Paul said that name of God Who sent His own Son was Yahweh?
Jesus(Son) said: "Before Abraham was, I AM"
I AM is Yahweh
..............

Mark Fulton:
Paul had an almost fanatical and rather morbid obsession with sin. He asserted everyone was born with the stain of original sin, inherited from his or her parents.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verses, please"
Mark Fulton:
Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Alla: Where is here obsession with sin? Paul said that all men are mortal(death passed upon all men) / Adam and Eve became mortal.
mortal beings can not procreate immortal beings. And all mortal beings sin.

............

Mark Fulton:
He (Paul)claimed that his Christ had offered his life to God.
Alla:
epistle, chapter, verse, please"
Mark Fulton:
Hebrews 10;10 King James Bible
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Alla:
Where did Paul say here that Christ offered His life TO GOD?
........

Alla:
Atonement is needed that Mercy wouldn't rob Justice. I already explained this in different thread."
Mark Fulton:
Utter nonsense. Try using that argument in a court of law and you'll be laughed at.
Alla:
Men's court of law is not God's court of law.
If God Father forgives me completely or even partially He will rob Justice. Justice for sin is death according to Scriptures.
Gods do not rob Justice. They can not rob Justice and continue to be Gods.
So, Atonement makes it possible that Mercy won't rob Justice.

...........

Mark Fulton:
Don't you find it rather odd that Paul is such Christ fanboy, it doesn't bother to mention Joseph or Mary?
Alla:
may be he did( in epistles we don't have.)
According to Paul we don't have all his writings.

Paul was obsessed with sin...

"My own actions bewilder me; what I do is not what I wish to do, but something which I hate. Why then, if what I do is something I have no wish to do, I thereby admit that the Law [of God] is worthy of all honor; meanwhile, my action does not come from me, but from the sinful principle that dwells in me.

Of this I am certain, that no principle of good dwells in me, that is, in my natural self; praiseworthy intentions are always ready at hand, but I cannot find my way to perform them; it is not the good my will prefers, but the evil my will disapproves that I find myself doing. "



"And if what I do is something I have not the will to do, it cannot be I that bring it about; it must be the sinful principle that dwells in me. This, then, is what I find about the Law [of God], that evil is close at my side, when my will is to do what is praiseworthy. Inwardly, I applaud God's disposition, but I observe another disposition in my lower self, which raises war against the disposition of my [heart], and so I am handed over as a captive to that disposition towards sin which my lower self contains" (Rm 7:15-23).

"And so now they are steeped in all sorts of injustice, rottenness, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, wrangling, treachery, and spite; libelers, slanderers, enemies of God, rude, arrogant and boastful, enterprising in evil, rebellious to parents, without brains, honor, love, or pity. They are well aware of God's ordinance: that those who behave like this deserve to die - yet they not only do it, but even applaud others who do the same" (Rm 1:29-32).

I could go on with dozens of other quotes but I'm sure you get the picture.
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