Who was Saint Paul?
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16-08-2015, 01:56 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Well yeah. Last night the posting was very different to today. Last night it was "I am an ignorant woman I know nothing and am worthless." I have seen no evidence of this today. Complete change in tactic.

Basically taking advantage of our good nature to waste our time. Which by the way, is precious.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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16-08-2015, 07:14 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 01:50 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I assume you mean her integrity?

When and why?

This morning. It seems too unreal. I suspect a man playing a woman and trolling us to see how far he/she can lead us around by the collar.

Especially since I've already dealt with her "perfect justice" for "owing money" analogy pretty handily, in a previous thread.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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16-08-2015, 07:16 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
2. JimBob comes along and tells me, "hey you owe this debt to She Who Owns All Money, Alla, who is really pissed at you for it".
3. JimBob says, "But don't worry, Bill Gates already paid this debt. It's all right here in this book. Bill Gates pays for everyone. See? Says right here. Everyone!"
4. JimBob says, "Since you owed that big debt, and Bill Gates paid it, you now owe Bill your gratitude."
5. JimBob says, "I work for Bill, and Bill wants you to work for me for an hour every Sunday, and give me 10% of your income, and to go tell others about the debt they owe to Bill because of what they used to owe to Alla."
6. JimBob says, "If you don't do all this, Alla is going to come kill you. Oh, and don't listen to SueEllen, or go work for her; she doesn't even know Bill Gates, and doesn't have access to Alla's money, no matter what SueEllen says. Stan or Eric, either. They're all wrong. Only I know Bill Gates and his Book of Debts."
7. JimBob says, "There's also this invisible ghost who will inhabit your body and help you feel like you're doing good work on my behalf. His name is Boo. He'll show you what to do."
8. "Really, they're all the same person", JimBob says, "Even though one is a ghost-feeling and one is the son of the other, and they do different things, they're really all one person."
9. I punch JimBob in the nose for wasting my time and trying to swindle me.

The Tale of Alla, Bill Gates, and Ghost Boo, the Financial Trinity by The Rocket Surgeon
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ce?page=63

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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16-08-2015, 09:02 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
John said that Jesus was Creator.
Moses said that Yahweh was Creator.
Jesus - Before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus didn't say: before Abraham was, I have been.
Yahweh said - I AM
Jews accused Jesus of calling Himself God. They had this impression that Jesus told them that He was God
KJV Bible/ Old Testament:
There is LORD God(Yahweh) and there is Lord GOD


Isaiah 25
1 O LORD(Yahweh), thou art my God
8 He(LORD God/Yahweh) will swallow up death (Jesus swallowed up death) in victory;
and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears off all faces: for the LORD hath spoken it. Question: (Who is Lord GOD if LORD God is Yahweh?)
........

Isaiah 26:
13 O LORD our God(Yahweh)
.......

Isaiah 3:
1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of Hosts... Question:(The LORD of Hosts is Yahweh, but Who is the Lord?)
13 The LORD(Yahweh) standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people. Question:(Who is going to plead for us? Isaiah says LORD(Yahweh), New Testament says Jesus will plead not the Father)
17 Therefore the Lord will smite... Question: (Who is the Lord?)

........
Isiah 7: 10-20 Question: (LORD is YAHWEH, but who is the Lord(v.14 and 20)?)

.......

Isaiah chapter 22: Question: ( LORD of Hosts is Yahweh, but Who is Lord GOD of hosts)
14 And it was revealed in my ears by the LORD of hosts(Yahweh), surely this iniquity shall not purged from you till you die, saith the Lord GOD(?) of hosts.
.........
Isaiah 54
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; LORD(YAHWEH) of the hosts is his name Question: (Who is Groom or Husband according to NT? Answer: Jesus
and thy Redeemer Question: (Who is Redeemer or Savior?) Jesus
The God of the whole earth shall be called Question: ( who created earth according to NT?) Answer: Jesus, by Him earth and worlds were made.
......
Isaiah 62
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD(?) is upon me, because the LORD(Yahweh) has anointed me to preach good tidings. Question: (the LORD is YAHWEH, He anoint to preach the Gospel/good tidings, Jesus preached good tidings, but Who is the Lord GOD?)

Genesis 5
2 ..sons of God(Yahweh)
5 And GOD saw Question: (If God or the LORD is Yahweh than Who is GOD?)

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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16-08-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 09:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  John said that Jesus was Creator.
Moses said that Yahweh was Creator.
Jesus - Before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus didn't say: before Abraham was, I have been.
Yahweh said - I AM
Jews accused Jesus of calling Himself God. They had this impression that Jesus told them that He was God
KJV Bible/ Old Testament:
There is LORD God(Yahweh) and there is Lord GOD


Isaiah 25
1 O LORD(Yahweh), thou art my God
8 He(LORD God/Yahweh) will swallow up death (Jesus swallowed up death) in victory;
and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears off all faces: for the LORD hath spoken it. Question: (Who is Lord GOD if LORD God is Yahweh?)
........

Isaiah 26:
13 O LORD our God(Yahweh)
.......

Isaiah 3:
1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of Hosts... Question:(The LORD of Hosts is Yahweh, but Who is the Lord?)
13 The LORD(Yahweh) standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people. Question:(Who is going to plead for us? Isaiah says LORD(Yahweh), New Testament says Jesus will plead not the Father)
17 Therefore the Lord will smite... Question: (Who is the Lord?)

........
Isiah 7: 10-20 Question: (LORD is YAHWEH, but who is the Lord(v.14 and 20)?)

.......

Isaiah chapter 22: Question: ( LORD of Hosts is Yahweh, but Who is Lord GOD of hosts)
14 And it was revealed in my ears by the LORD of hosts(Yahweh), surely this iniquity shall not purged from you till you die, saith the Lord GOD(?) of hosts.
.........
Isaiah 54
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; LORD(YAHWEH) of the hosts is his name Question: (Who is Groom or Husband according to NT? Answer: Jesus
and thy Redeemer Question: (Who is Redeemer or Savior?) Jesus
The God of the whole earth shall be called Question: ( who created earth according to NT?) Answer: Jesus, by Him earth and worlds were made.
......
Isaiah 62
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD(?) is upon me, because the LORD(Yahweh) has anointed me to preach good tidings. Question: (the LORD is YAHWEH, He anoint to preach the Gospel/good tidings, Jesus preached good tidings, but Who is the Lord GOD?)

Genesis 5
2 ..sons of God(Yahweh)
5 And GOD saw Question: (If God or the LORD is Yahweh than Who is GOD?)

And Dumbledore said he was a wizard.
Reality is not determined by what is written in your idiotic fairy tales.

Grow up.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-08-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 10:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 08:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Mark,

Alla is correct here.

Mmmmmm.

I must admit I never thought that Paul could've been referring to Mary.

But....Jewish lineage wasn't thought of as being transferred through the mother, only the father. Mum was only the "nest" where the seed (ie the embryo) was planted.

Many years later a big deal was made of Joseph's lineage in two of the Gospels to prove Jeebus was of the seed of David...not Mary's lineage.

Bucky...what's your opinion on this?

Jewish "lineage" may have more to do with religious upbringing and how one is raised ... generally in whatever sect the mother was raised.

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16-08-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 09:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 09:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  John said that Jesus was Creator.
Moses said that Yahweh was Creator.
Jesus - Before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus didn't say: before Abraham was, I have been.
Yahweh said - I AM
Jews accused Jesus of calling Himself God. They had this impression that Jesus told them that He was God
KJV Bible/ Old Testament:
There is LORD God(Yahweh) and there is Lord GOD


Isaiah 25
1 O LORD(Yahweh), thou art my God
8 He(LORD God/Yahweh) will swallow up death (Jesus swallowed up death) in victory;
and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears off all faces: for the LORD hath spoken it. Question: (Who is Lord GOD if LORD God is Yahweh?)
........

Isaiah 26:
13 O LORD our God(Yahweh)
.......

Isaiah 3:
1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of Hosts... Question:(The LORD of Hosts is Yahweh, but Who is the Lord?)
13 The LORD(Yahweh) standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people. Question:(Who is going to plead for us? Isaiah says LORD(Yahweh), New Testament says Jesus will plead not the Father)
17 Therefore the Lord will smite... Question: (Who is the Lord?)

........
Isiah 7: 10-20 Question: (LORD is YAHWEH, but who is the Lord(v.14 and 20)?)

.......

Isaiah chapter 22: Question: ( LORD of Hosts is Yahweh, but Who is Lord GOD of hosts)
14 And it was revealed in my ears by the LORD of hosts(Yahweh), surely this iniquity shall not purged from you till you die, saith the Lord GOD(?) of hosts.
.........
Isaiah 54
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; LORD(YAHWEH) of the hosts is his name Question: (Who is Groom or Husband according to NT? Answer: Jesus
and thy Redeemer Question: (Who is Redeemer or Savior?) Jesus
The God of the whole earth shall be called Question: ( who created earth according to NT?) Answer: Jesus, by Him earth and worlds were made.
......
Isaiah 62
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD(?) is upon me, because the LORD(Yahweh) has anointed me to preach good tidings. Question: (the LORD is YAHWEH, He anoint to preach the Gospel/good tidings, Jesus preached good tidings, but Who is the Lord GOD?)

Genesis 5
2 ..sons of God(Yahweh)
5 And GOD saw Question: (If God or the LORD is Yahweh than Who is GOD?)

And Dumbledore said he was a wizard.
Reality is not determined by what is written in your idiotic fairy tales.

Grow up.


Peter Pan believed in pixie dust. Must be true, it's written in a book.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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16-08-2015, 10:02 AM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2015 10:28 AM by Free.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 08:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 08:17 PM)Free Wrote:  Now this is an understatement. Paul absolutely believed his idea of Christ was not only God, but also equal in every way. Look below:
Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, Who,being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

No. Paul here is quoting some form of ritual "hymn" or poem. The words speak of the god as "other" and in Hebrew culture "divinity" (as all members of the heavenly host were *divine beings*), does not mean Christ "was god". That idea to a Jew was absolutely impossible.

You do not understand. Paul regarded Christ as a god, and equal to God. It doesn't matter in the slightest what any Jew would think, because Paul was not practicing Judaism at this point, but instead he was propagating his own theology.

Jesus = Son of Man.
Christ = Son of God.

If you are the son of a lion, you are a lion. If you are the son of an elephant, you are an elephant. If you are the son of a man, you are a man.

Therefore, if you are the son of God, you are a god.

It's more than the words, Bucky; it is also the mindset of 1st century religious fanatics. It's the IDIOM in both the Greek language and the 1st century culture.

What you see in English is not a great representation of what is actually there. You need to understand that as English evolved, so did punctuation, capitalization, grammar, etc, none of which existed in the original text.

For example, If you read John 10:30 to 10: 37 with this in mind, you will see how Christians used capitalization of the word "God" in John 10:33, to give you the impression that the verse has the Jews accusing Jesus of being God, because Christians want you to think that way as an understanding of what Jesus meant in John 10:30.

How do I know that the capitalized God in John 10:33 is wrong? You can tell it's wrong because Jesus' response in the very next verse does not address an accusation of him claiming to be God, as in the supreme Deity. It addresses an accusation of him proclaiming himself to be a god, something the Christian scribes failed to consider, which creates a contradiction.

Observe:

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father, for which of those works do you stone me?"
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him saying, "We are not stoning you for any good deeds, but for blasphemy because you, being but a man, have made yourself God.
<-(Right here is the problem. How do we know the capitalized "God" is wrong? You can tell by Jesus' response in the very next verse).
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" <-- (If Jesus thought they were accusing him of claiming to be God the Almighty, why then does he answer them in the lower-case "gods" and with the connotation of polytheism? Should Jesus have not responded with, "I have said you are God?" But no he does not, and the verse he is quoting comes from Psalms, and in its entirety reads as...)

Psa_82:6 I have said, You are gods; and all of you sons of the Most High.

Jesus then goes on to explain his reasoning below:

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am a Son of God?


Jesus explains that since the OT demonstrates that God had proclaimed others in the past as being gods, and therefore sons of God, then those who were accusing him had no basis for the accusation because a precedence has been demonstrated.

Now you know the meaning of John 10:30. Jesus was not defending himself against an accusation of being the Supreme Deity, but rather defending himself against an accusation of being polytheistic. I suspect that someone in the past redacted the last part of that Psalm Jesus was quoting ("and all of you sons of the Most High") because it demonstrates that Jesus was not the one and only son of God as per Christian teachings, and it also demonstrates his polytheism, something Christians of antiquity failed to completely cover up.

John 10:33 should be understood as this:

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself a god.


Therefore, the same thing happened to Paul's writing. Christians decided to capitalize the word "God," instead of using the original "a god."

Therefore in like manner Paul should be understood as this:

Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, Who,being in the form of a god, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

At the end of the day, both Jesus of Nazareth and Paul were actually polytheists.

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16-08-2015, 10:23 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 10:02 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 08:17 PM)Free Wrote:  Why is it unique? Explain why it may be unPauline. Find some evidence to support these assertions, even if it is circumstantial.


Now this is an understatement. Paul absolutely believed his idea of Christ was not only God, but also equal in every way. Look below:

Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Mark, this is universally understood in the scholarly community as something known as the duality of Jesus Christ. In the quote above, Paul is speaking about the human side of Jesus Christ ie; the human Jesus part. However, in the very next verse you see this:

Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit

You will notice in Romans 1.3, he says, "according to the flesh," which literally means "On account of being human," and in Romans 1.4 he says, "according to the spirit," which means "On account of being a spirit."

Paul's theology is:

Jesus bar Joseph = Human, "Son of Man."
Christ = Spirit, "Son of God."


Now you know why the gospels use both Son of Man and Son of God interchangeably, because at times when the attributed words of Jesus say anything regarding the two, he is portrayed as speaking either about his own human part known as Jesus, or about the spirit of Christ that supposedly dwelt within him.

Think about this Mark, because knowing and carefully considering this can seriously help your hypothesis that the Gospels were written with Pauline theology in mind.

Not even Christians know or actually understand this.

More later ...

Thanks again.

Re "Why is it unique? Explain why it may be unPauline. Find some evidence to support these assertions, even if it is circumstantial."

It is unique in that it is the only place in any of Paul's letters where Paul describes what Jesus allegedly said or did. It is, therefore, very "unPauline"

By the way, Carrier thinks that this is an interpolation too, although he can't prove it.

I agree with you that Paul (or an interpolator) was talking about the "duality" of Christ. My point was that the concept is ridiculous. You can't have two fathers... it is inconsistent with what we know of the real world. Paul might like to pretend you can, but the fact is you can't.

Mark, what you think here in regards to whether Paul was right or wrong is irrelevant. Sure, we know we cannot have two fathers, but what we think in regards to Paul being right or wrong doesn't matter.

All that matters is what Paul thought, and that's what you work with.

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16-08-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(15-08-2015 11:16 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 08:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No. Paul here is quoting some form of ritual "hymn" or poem. The words speak of the god as "other" and in Hebrew culture "divinity" (as all members of the heavenly host were *divine beings*), does not mean Christ "was god". That idea to a Jew was absolutely impossible.

Philippians 2:9 "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name".

Does it say he exalted himself ? No. Does it say he was made "divine" ? No. If he "was god" he could have done that (himself).
There is outside agency from a superior being implied. Nowhere does it say Jesus *is* Yahweh, the Father.
It says he was "exalted" (raised up) ... just like all the other Jewish apocalyptic heroes who died for their causes had been "exalted" (raised up).

That's interesting.

I remember spending many hours trying to work out whether Paul thought his Christ was equal to God, even on this forum, when some guy with a PhD in this sort of nonsense was quite vocal, and I couldn't arrive at a conclusion, so I didn't commit myself.

Read this post of mine.

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