Who was Saint Paul?
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16-08-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  Questions to FREE

Isaiah 62
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD(Yahweh) has anointed me to preach good tidings. Question: (the LORD is YAHWEH, He anointed to preach the Gospel/good tidings, Jesus preached good tidings, but Who is the Lord GOD?)
........


Isaiah 25
1 O LORD, thou art my God
8 He will swallow up death (Jesus swallowed up death) in victory;
and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears off all faces: for the LORD hath spoken it. Question: (Who is Lord GOD if LORD God is Yahweh who swallowed the death?)

You just don't get it, do you!Facepalm
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16-08-2015, 03:50 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Paul: faith and works.
Once a sinner is forever a sinner. One sin and I can not enter heaven. This is the law.
I may try to do many good works after(obey laws) but it is not going to help me.
My good works will not save me. They do not remove the stain of my very first sin.
This what Paul was teaching. And this is true principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So, what should be done that a sinner can be saved from the sin/sins?

Paul said that it is by/trough faith in Christ.

Why? God Father can not let a sinner to enter heaven. If there are sinners in heaven it is not heaven any more.
So the only thing God father can do is to punish a sinner. Penalty for sin is death/hell.

But God Son- Jesus Christ can help us. He can pay for our sins and cleanse us with His blood. But there is a condition. Jesus: I can cleanse you with MY blood only if you make a covenant with Me. My blood +covenant with Me will cleanse you from sins.
But in order to make a covenant with Christ some one has to have faith in Christ first.
If I do not believe in Christ I will not make this covenant.

No faith = no covenant = no cleansing from sin

But what is covenant? Covenant is a promise to keep God's commandments(good works)

How did Jesus took my sins upon Himself exactly? How did He pay for them?
It is another topic

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16-08-2015, 03:55 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 03:29 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  Questions to FREE

Isaiah 62
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD(Yahweh) has anointed me to preach good tidings. Question: (the LORD is YAHWEH, He anointed to preach the Gospel/good tidings, Jesus preached good tidings, but Who is the Lord GOD?)
........


Isaiah 25
1 O LORD, thou art my God
8 He will swallow up death (Jesus swallowed up death) in victory;
and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears off all faces: for the LORD hath spoken it. Question: (Who is Lord GOD if LORD God is Yahweh who swallowed the death?)

You just don't get it, do you!Facepalm
I asked free because you don't know the answer. No

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16-08-2015, 04:00 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 01:42 PM)Free Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 11:26 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sorry, but you have no clue what you're talking about.

1. You have no idea what Paul actually thought.

Yes ... I ... do.

Quote:2. The title "son of god" (at that time, in that culture) was a general honorific, accorded to many .. politicians, generals, heroes of many sorts, and to "righteous men".

True, but that is not all it meant.

Quote:It IN NO WAY meant they had "divine status", and it CERATINLY did not mean they were gods, or in any way ''equivalent to Yahweh". The statement "Paul was not *practicing Judaism betrays a profound ignorance on your part. Paul WAS a Jew, through and through. He did not just "practice" Judaism. Throughout his letters he refers to his cultural underpinnings, and in some places says that some things (such as women being silent) were "required by (the Jewish) law".

And this is where you just banged the stick of stupidity over your fucking head.

If Paul was a practicing Jew when he wrote his letters, then what the fuck does his theology represent? Judaism? Ya think?

He mixed in some Judaism with his theology, and by simply doing that HE WAS NO LONGER A PRACTICING JEW.

Ya dumb bastard.

Quote:Sorry. You may be an historian, but clearly you are a dilatant when it comes to THIS particular culture and period.


No. Thanks for demonstrating your ignorance of Hebrew culture.

Just "no?" No explanation of why you think it's incorrect?

That's exactly what you do not understand. To the culture in the 1st century, that is exactly how they viewed things. Not just the Jews either, but all the entire monochrome.

Quote:They were not.

All made up bullshit. Not present in ANY of the synoptics. Written by GREEK Gnostics many many many years later, with an entirely different view of things than Jews, and the "words placed in their mouths" (as a literary device). You can't support your fantasies about Paul and Jesus by what's in John.

Do you really think so? Well then ...

1Co_8:5 For though there are those who are called gods, whether in Heaven or in earth, as there are many gods and many lords,

Didn't see that coming, did you? No, you didn't.

Paul states clearly that there are many gods existing either in Heaven or in the earth, and despite his claim that, to him (next verse) that there is only 1 God and 1 Lord, there is no escaping the fact that he believed in the existence of other gods. His very words state exactly that.



Quote:There is an extensive body of research and long scholarly discussions concerning other "divine beings" (which you clearly are totally unaware of) in Hebrew culture. The "heavenly host" was populated with many divine beings, (starting in the OT when the Witch of Endor conjures the shade of Samuel for Saul). Saul asks her what she saw, and she replies "I see a divine being". That in no way, whatsoever, meant she saw a god, or someone equivalent to Yahweh. Sorry dude. You're just flat out wrong here.

It's called "polytheism", dude. The first example is right in the 1st line of the bible:

You see this:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

But it actually says this:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth.

Judaism BEGINS with polytheism, and it doesn't fucking matter what the Jews say about it. It is what it is, and both Paul and Jesus knew it.

Quote:I am stunned by the "presentism" in your views of all this.

No presentism used. Unlike you, I put myself back into the 1st century frame of mind, and view hings from that perspective. I study how these texts were translated into English, and look for missing idioms in the translation.

It's you who is using presentism dude.

Here is the passage. I'm not sure how you can say Paul thought there were many Gods. It seems to me he is just saying there are many false gods...and only one true god....

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
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16-08-2015, 04:03 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 03:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 03:29 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You just don't get it, do you!Facepalm
I asked free because you don't know the answer. No

I can't understand your question, probably because your English is not good enough
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16-08-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 04:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here is the passage. I'm not sure how you can say Paul thought there were many Gods. It seems to me he is just saying there are many false gods...and only one true god....
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
But Paul doesn't say "there be false gods many, and false lords many"
There are gods many and lords many.
Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among gods

there are gods in heaven according to Psalm 82

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16-08-2015, 04:15 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 04:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I can't understand your question, probably because your English is not good enough
Sure.Smile

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16-08-2015, 04:43 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 02:39 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(16-08-2015 10:02 AM)Free Wrote:  You do not understand. Paul regarded Christ as a god, and equal to God. It doesn't matter in the slightest what any Jew would think, because Paul was not practicing Judaism at this point, but instead he was propagating his own theology.

Jesus = Son of Man.
Christ = Son of God.

If you are the son of a lion, you are a lion. If you are the son of an elephant, you are an elephant. If you are the son of a man, you are a man.

Therefore, if you are the son of God, you are a god.

It's more than the words, Bucky; it is also the mindset of 1st century religious fanatics. It's the IDIOM in both the Greek language and the 1st century culture.

What you see in English is not a great representation of what is actually there. You need to understand that as English evolved, so did punctuation, capitalization, grammar, etc, none of which existed in the original text.

For example, If you read John 10:30 to 10: 37 with this in mind, you will see how Christians used capitalization of the word "God" in John 10:33, to give you the impression that the verse has the Jews accusing Jesus of being God, because Christians want you to think that way as an understanding of what Jesus meant in John 10:30.

How do I know that the capitalized God in John 10:33 is wrong? You can tell it's wrong because Jesus' response in the very next verse does not address an accusation of him claiming to be God, as in the supreme Deity. It addresses an accusation of him proclaiming himself to be a god, something the Christian scribes failed to consider, which creates a contradiction.

Observe:

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father, for which of those works do you stone me?"
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him saying, "We are not stoning you for any good deeds, but for blasphemy because you, being but a man, have made yourself God.
<-(Right here is the problem. How do we know the capitalized "God" is wrong? You can tell by Jesus' response in the very next verse).
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" <-- (If Jesus thought they were accusing him of claiming to be God the Almighty, why then does he answer them in the lower-case "gods" and with the connotation of polytheism? Should Jesus have not responded with, "I have said you are God?" But no he does not, and the verse he is quoting comes from Psalms, and in its entirety reads as...)

Psa_82:6 I have said, You are gods; and all of you sons of the Most High.

Jesus then goes on to explain his reasoning below:

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am a Son of God?


Jesus explains that since the OT demonstrates that God had proclaimed others in the past as being gods, and therefore sons of God, then those who were accusing him had no basis for the accusation because a precedence has been demonstrated.

Now you know the meaning of John 10:30. Jesus was not defending himself against an accusation of being the Supreme Deity, but rather defending himself against an accusation of being polytheistic. I suspect that someone in the past redacted the last part of that Psalm Jesus was quoting ("and all of you sons of the Most High") because it demonstrates that Jesus was not the one and only son of God as per Christian teachings, and it also demonstrates his polytheism, something Christians of antiquity failed to completely cover up.

John 10:33 should be understood as this:

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself a god.


Therefore, the same thing happened to Paul's writing. Christians decided to capitalize the word "God," instead of using the original "a god."

Therefore in like manner Paul should be understood as this:

Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, Who,being in the form of a god, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

At the end of the day, both Jesus of Nazareth and Paul were actually polytheists.

Are you saying that you think all Jews at the time of Jesus and Paul were polytheists?

They have been polytheists since the origin of their religion, although none would admit it.

Even modern Jews absolutely HATE the 1st line of Genesis in Gen 1.1, because they all know that it literally says "the gods" and not "God."

They don't know what to do about it, and hate to discuss it.

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16-08-2015, 04:52 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(16-08-2015 04:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Even modern Jews absolutely HATE the 1st line of Genesis in Gen 1.1, because they all know that it literally says "the gods" and not "God."

They don't know what to do about it, and hate to discuss it.
Yes, I've heard that Jews have no idea what to do or how to explain "gods".
"Elohim" is plural for "gods"

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16-08-2015, 04:54 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2015 04:57 PM by Alla.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
PAUL knew who LORD God was.
PAUL also knew who Lord GOD was.

1)LORD God is Yahweh. LORD of hosts, Savior, Redeemer and Messiah, Prince of Peace, everlasting God, Creator of heaven and earth
2)Lord GOD is His(Yahweh's) God - God of the spirits of all flesh.

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