Who was Saint Paul?
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05-11-2012, 05:48 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(05-11-2012 10:38 AM)Free Wrote:  
(05-11-2012 02:46 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey Free, do you agree with me about Paul?

Hi Mark,

I pretty much do. Paul created a religion for the Gentiles, and was rejected by the Jews who followed this Jesus guy. Whatever religion Jesus taught likely died when the Sanhedrin killed his brother James around AD 61.



Hi Free, I agree that James would have taught the same message as Jesus. I think they (the Nazarenes) didn't die out until much later though. Please see my reply to Logica. Cheers.
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05-11-2012, 07:07 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(05-11-2012 05:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-11-2012 08:10 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  That is debatable. I theorize, assuming he even exists, that Jesus Christ actually did, later in his life, believe that he was the son of God. He was an apocalyptic prophet, one of many at the time. To me, it seems much more logical to assume that he and John both fabricated the entire story, up until Jesus' death.

The Jews who followed and believed in Jesus Christ would be Christians. They follow Christ. People who follow the cult dogma and rituals Paul introduced later in the New Testament are Paulists.


When we say "the son of god" it is a misunderstanding. It should be "a" son of son. There were many "sons of god", in Jesus' day, (generals, politicians, prophets), It was a general title or "honorific", such as "he was a good guy". It did not mean he was THE ONLY offspring of god. It meant he was a "righteous man". That's ALL it meant.

Also Mark, (I need to get a reference and post it), but so much of what went on was the interplay as you point out, of the various factions of the Jews. http://www.centralcal.com/crist2.htm The grandson of Gamaliel, forced the synagogues in the 90's to read "Expulsion curses" which are are reflected , (but "set") earlier in the gospels , (also needs reference to follow). Some Jews hated the Nazorenes, and wanted them out, and Gamaliel forced the synagogues, at each service to read a threat, that if they did not give up their attachment to their Jeebus, they had to leave, The fact this happens so late, (in the 90's), is support for what you have written. I'll get the reference, and you can add it to the above. All through the gospels we see the factions of the Jews fighting, and we are so familiar with the words, they slip by, unnoticed. But Jewry was deeply divided into opposing political camps, (as it always was .. upcoming post almost done). The entire history of the Jews in the Bible originates as we see it today, as a direct result of this infighting of the groups, and especially, (in the early texts), the groups of priests, from different locations.



If you can find those references i'd love to see them! Well done. I've never come across them in my reading.
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05-11-2012, 07:07 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Mark, I can edit this out, later, but here are some things about the split process, and Gamaliel II.

Controversy and Origin of Expulsion Curse of the Minim :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/sta...ctions.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel_II

There are more clues about the split from Judaism.
Jews were required to pay a tax, after the first revolt, and eventually the reason, Christians were seen as separate
was they they were exempted from the Jewish Tax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscus_Iudaicus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianit...st_century

A good resource here is a book called :
A House Divided, The Parting of the Ways Between Synagogue and Church, Vincent Martin, PhD, (Harvard).

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05-11-2012, 07:42 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(05-11-2012 05:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(05-11-2012 10:38 AM)Free Wrote:  Hi Mark,

I pretty much do. Paul created a religion for the Gentiles, and was rejected by the Jews who followed this Jesus guy. Whatever religion Jesus taught likely died when the Sanhedrin killed his brother James around AD 61.



Hi Free, I agree that James would have taught the same message as Jesus. I think they (the Nazarenes) didn't die out until much later though. Please see my reply to Logica. Cheers.
Excellent article.

A couple questions/concerns however. The quote below:



Quote:Christians today often incorrectly call Nero’s casualties Christians, whereas they were, if this really happened, Nazarenes.


I find this to not be likely. I believe that Nero persecuted the Pauline Christians while in Rome, while the Nazarenes would have remained in and around Jerusalem at this time. I have a couple reasons to accept this:


1. I don't see the Nazarenes in Rome in AD64 since we still have James in Jerusalem within 2 years. Also, the Nazarenes seem to have stuck to Jewish roots and Jewish people (as per their relation to Yeshua), and not be spreading their religion to anyone who was didn't have Jewish roots.


2. We do know that the Pauline Christians were in Rome as per Paul's letters. We also know from that letters that the Pauline Christians were being persecuted by the Romans.


3. Tacitus says that the Christians that Nero persecuted were the very same ones responsible for a "a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome" after Jesus was crucified, which seems to point to the resurrection story propagated by the Pauline Christians.


I'm afraid I must side with it being the Pauline Christians as being the ones Nero persecuted.


Also, do you think the Nazarene had Essene influences? Josephus provides an excellent look at the Essene, and when we compare their description to the Gospel record concerning Jesus we can see some excellent comparisons.


Also, not sure what you think, but I have all but concluded that the NT is a mixture of Nazarene, Pauline, and Gnostic beliefs. Paul himself seemed to demonstrate some Gnostic influence, and Revelation is an obvious slam dunk.

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05-11-2012, 11:16 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
'Saint' Paul was a mysoginist and responsible for two thousand years of oppression of women in Xtian societies.
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05-11-2012, 11:53 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(05-11-2012 11:16 PM)Janus Wrote:  'Saint' Paul was a mysoginist and responsible for two thousand years of oppression of women in Xtian societies.
1. F you Paul!

2. Last night as I was falling asleep I thought of a question that pertained to this thread. At this moment I cannot remember it.
a. Yes, I think about this stuff while drifting off to dream land.

C. Keep on posting. I can only speak for myself but I benefit from the knowledge being passed on.

@. If you can recommend/cite books/sources that back up or add to your posts I would appreciate that. I am, albeit slowly, reading what I can.
List so far: God Delusion... Check
Who Wrote the Bible?.....Check
God is not great......Check
Forged.....Reding
Good and Evil.... to read
The Origin of Satan.....Reading
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06-11-2012, 08:04 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(05-11-2012 11:53 PM)Noelani Wrote:  
(05-11-2012 11:16 PM)Janus Wrote:  'Saint' Paul was a mysoginist and responsible for two thousand years of oppression of women in Xtian societies.
1. F you Paul!

2. Last night as I was falling asleep I thought of a question that pertained to this thread. At this moment I cannot remember it.
a. Yes, I think about this stuff while drifting off to dream land.

C. Keep on posting. I can only speak for myself but I benefit from the knowledge being passed on.

@. If you can recommend/cite books/sources that back up or add to your posts I would appreciate that. I am, albeit slowly, reading what I can.
List so far: God Delusion... Check
Who Wrote the Bible?.....Check
God is not great......Check
Forged.....Reding
Good and Evil.... to read
The Origin of Satan.....Reading
Misquoting Jesus, Bart Ehrman

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-11-2012, 08:53 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(05-11-2012 11:53 PM)Noelani Wrote:  
(05-11-2012 11:16 PM)Janus Wrote:  'Saint' Paul was a mysoginist and responsible for two thousand years of oppression of women in Xtian societies.
1. F you Paul!

2. Last night as I was falling asleep I thought of a question that pertained to this thread. At this moment I cannot remember it.
a. Yes, I think about this stuff while drifting off to dream land.

C. Keep on posting. I can only speak for myself but I benefit from the knowledge being passed on.

@. If you can recommend/cite books/sources that back up or add to your posts I would appreciate that. I am, albeit slowly, reading what I can.
List so far: God Delusion... Check
Who Wrote the Bible?.....Check
God is not great......Check
Forged.....Reding
Good and Evil.... to read
The Origin of Satan.....Reading


NT
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06-11-2012, 09:05 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(05-11-2012 05:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  When we say "the son of god" it is a misunderstanding. It should be "a" son of son. There were many "sons of god", in Jesus' day, (generals, politicians, prophets), It was a general title or "honorific", such as "he was a good guy". It did not mean he was THE ONLY offspring of god. It meant he was a "righteous man". That's ALL it meant.
I said nothing to the contrary.

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06-11-2012, 06:58 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(05-11-2012 07:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Mark, I can edit this out, later, but here are some things about the split process, and Gamaliel II.

Controversy and Origin of Expulsion Curse of the Minim :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/sta...ctions.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamaliel_II

There are more clues about the split from Judaism.
Jews were required to pay a tax, after the first revolt, and eventually the reason, Christians were seen as separate
was they they were exempted from the Jewish Tax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscus_Iudaicus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianit...st_century

A good resource here is a book called :
A House Divided, The Parting of the Ways Between Synagogue and Church, Vincent Martin, PhD, (Harvard).



Thanks mate!
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