Who was Saint Paul?

[Bucky Ball]

(11-11-2012 07:21 PM)Free Wrote:  

(11-11-2012 07:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sorry.
That wasn't the link.
As far as Wiki goes, YOU must accept Wiki, as YOU were the one who began to *attempt* to use it, to establish your *so called* "consensus".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants
So, There's a list. However I will not use Wiki, but YOU have now invalidated your prior arguments, by objecting to it.

But very well. It's not necessary.
The three lines of evidence YOU presented in YOUR argument in the other thread were :
Tacitus, or ONE Roman historian,
Josephus,
and the writings of Saul of Tarsus.

I have already presented an argument why there is no reason to be certain who Tacitus was referring to, as he got the name wrong, and used a title as a name.
So we shall look at other contemporary writers in the Roman world.

Epectetus was a Greek writer on ethics who lived in Rome, and was very interested in the brotherhood of man. He *would have been very interested in Jesus, had he existed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epictetus He never mentions him.
Juvenal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juvenal and Martial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial
were Roman satirists who made fun of everything they could find in Rome in the First Century world.
They never once mention either Jesus, a "Christ" or Christians. Maybe they just didn't think they were funny.
Seneca the Elder, the greatest writer on Ethics at the time, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Elder
never once mentions Jesus, or Christians or a new "love" cult. Neither does his son, Seneca the Younger.
Pliny the Elder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder wrote on all sorts of natural phenomena, and odd occurrences, cults, and superstitions, earthquakes, etc in "De Superstitio". HE does not once mention Jesus, Christians or a Christ.
Galio, the BROTHER of Seneca, who was the (supposed) judge in the trial of Paul in Acts, never once mentions Jesus, Christians. or a Christ. In fact Galio doesn't even mention PAUL.

First Century Jewish historians of the time, such as Justice of Tiberius, who was a native of Galilee, and comtemporary of Jesus, wrote the ENTIRE Jewish history of the time, and NEVER ONCE mentions a Jesus, and neither do any of the other jewish historians who had an opportunity to do do. http://www.jewishhistory.org.il/history....endyear=79

Philo of Alexandria, a Jew, who may have actually been in Jerusalem, on site at the time, for the zombie invasion, who DID even write whole books on the Essenes, and other Jewish cults of Jesus'day NEVER ONCE mentions Jesus or his cult.

Nicholas of Damascus, the court historian, and friend of Herod, never once mentions a Jesus, or Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_of_Damascus

In the Talmud,
a Jesus ben Pandera, is mentioned, who was crucified in 80 BCE, on the day before Passover, is mentioned.
Jesus of Nazareth is never mentioned.
Jesus ben Stada, hanged on the eve of Passover, is mentioned. Still no Jesus of Nazareth.

Re Josephus: HE MENTIONS THE OTHER MESSIAHS.
Apparently some here have never really read the "Jewish Antiquities", or "Antiquities of the Jews", which is the book Josephus wrote.
Before we get to those we shall look at the *so-called* "Testimonium Flavinium".
I quote :
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call
him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men
as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the
Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,
those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared
to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold
these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the
tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."


Apart from the fact, (as this poster has personally observed in the Museo Ambrsiano in Milan) that it's an a different hand and different ink than the original document.
there is the obvious and all one has to do is read it to start laughing. :
a. It's a statement of faith. "lawful to call him a man" implies he was something greater than a man, (ie a messiah or a god).
It says he rose from the dead. It's a statement about the miracles, as being other than normal. It claims he WAS the Christ.

It has Josephus gushing over Jebus like a 13 year-old over Justin Bieber.

The forger makes three other mistakes.
1. It calls them "Christians" when in fact the Romans, or they, did not call themselves that until AFTER Josephus was dead.
2. It says "tribe" of Christians, which was an error of the forging scribes to try to make it appear a Jew was writing the interpolated text.
3. It refers to "gentiles", which was a word which Josephus NEVER used even once, anywhere else.

Josephus HIMSELF, spent his entire life, ... his life's work was to leave the impression that Vespasian was the messiah. So for him to at some random point assert something else is VERY suspicious, indeed. Josephus, in the "Antiquities" himself talks about other messiahs contemporary to Jesus, and indeed spends pages and pages and pages looking at :
1. Judas of Gallile
2. John the Baptiser
3. Theodus the Magician
4. The Egyptian

And yet we are to believe that he actually thought Jesus of Nazareth WAS the Christ, and can only spend one paragraph on him ?
In the next paragraph, which does not flow from the interpolated text, he says "at that time there was another calamity".
What ? Jesus was a calamity ? I don't think so.

I call BULLSHIT on Josephus.

Next, the interpolated forged text does not appear until the 4th Century. Origen and Clement of Alexandria would have given their left nut to have such a text. They often quote Josephus, but never mention it.

When it is mentioned, it comes from the biggest liar of all time, Eusebius. Eusebius, the official
propagandist for Constantine, entitles the 32nd Chapter of his 12th
Book of Evangelical Preparation :"How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who want to be Deceived." Eusebius is notoriously the author of a great many falsehoods – but then he does warn us in his infamous history: "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events
which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."– Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

So much for Josephus.

Paul never met Jesus, and is constantly warning his converts about the other gospels, and other Jesuses.

So there you have it, Using your own stuff. Your Josephus answers your own question. It is seriously shocking that someone who purports to be an historian, apparently have never read the "Jewish Antiquities".



Pliny, Tacitus, Seutonius debunked : http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm#.UKA1nmebWsw

Red Herring, all of it.

Now let me steer you back to the 1 question I asked you to answer:

Can you, or anyone else in this thread, find me one single instance of anyone from the first century who self-proclaimed themselves as being a Messiah or Christ, and/or can you find me one single instance of anyone else in antiquity who mentions that anyone else was entitled or referred to as Messiah or Christ?

No more red herrings. Just answer the question.

I just did. And your Josephus talks about them.

Here's some more from the Wiki link.
So you really never did read Josephus. Amazing.

Simon of Peraea (c. 4 BCE), a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled and was killed by the Romans.
Athronges (c. 3 CE), a shepherd turned rebel leader.
Menahem ben Judah , allegedly son of Judas of Galilee, partook in a revolt against Agrippa II before being slain by a rival Zealot leader.
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), founded a short-lived Jewish state before being defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War.
Moses of Crete (?), who in about 440–470 convinced the Jews of Crete to attempt to walk into the sea to return to Israel; he disappeared after that disaster.

You seem to lose track of context. You said their was "good evidence".
When he asked for some you didn't give any.

[Free]

(11-11-2012 07:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  

(11-11-2012 07:21 PM)Free Wrote:  Red Herring, all of it.

Now let me steer you back to the 1 question I asked you to answer:

Can you, or anyone else in this thread, find me one single instance of anyone from the first century who self-proclaimed themselves as being a Messiah or Christ, and/or can you find me one single instance of anyone else in antiquity who mentions that anyone else was entitled or referred to as Messiah or Christ?

No more red herrings. Just answer the question.

I just did. And your Josephus talks about them.

You most certainly did not.

Vespasian? You think Josephus regarded him as a Messiah? You are confusing your history.

What Josephus did was reinterpret Messianic prophesies to predict that Vespasian would rule the entire world. He did not say that Vespasian, a Roman, would become the Jewish Messiah.

That's ridiculous.

Are you also not aware that Josephus not ONCE mentions the word "Messiah" in his works of Antiquities of the Jews or The Jewish War? Also, are you not aware that Josephus only mentions the word "Christ" in reference to Jesus, and no one else in all his works?

[Free]

Quote:I just did. And your Josephus talks about them.

Here's some more from the Wiki link.
So you really never did read Josephus. Amazing.

Simon of Peraea (c. 4 BCE), a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled and was killed by the Romans.
Athronges (c. 3 CE), a shepherd turned rebel leader.
Menahem ben Judah , allegedly son of Judas of Galilee, partook in a revolt against Agrippa II before being slain by a rival Zealot leader.
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), founded a short-lived Jewish state before being defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War.
Moses of Crete (?), who in about 440–470 convinced the Jews of Crete to attempt to walk into the sea to return to Israel; he disappeared after that disaster.

You seem to lose track of context. You said their was "good evidence".
When he asked for some you didn't give any.

You are now using circular reasoning.

I asked you to prove that anybody on your list above was ever recorded as proclaiming themselves to be a Messiah or Christ, or if you can find anyone else in antiquity who mentions them as being considered a Messiah or Christ.

All you do is point back to the Wiki link as if it proves anything. It proves nothing, except how gullible you are to swallow wholesale whatever anyone feeds you, and not actually investigate for the truth.

The truth is that there is absolutely NOBODY mentioned from the 1st century, aside from this Jesus fellow, who was ever considered to be a Messiah or Christ.

NOBODY.

Swallow your pride and learn something from this.

[Bucky Ball]

(11-11-2012 07:57 PM)Free Wrote:  

Quote:I just did. And your Josephus talks about them.

Here's some more from the Wiki link.
So you really never did read Josephus. Amazing.

Simon of Peraea (c. 4 BCE), a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled and was killed by the Romans.
Athronges (c. 3 CE), a shepherd turned rebel leader.
Menahem ben Judah , allegedly son of Judas of Galilee, partook in a revolt against Agrippa II before being slain by a rival Zealot leader.
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), founded a short-lived Jewish state before being defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War.
Moses of Crete (?), who in about 440–470 convinced the Jews of Crete to attempt to walk into the sea to return to Israel; he disappeared after that disaster.

You seem to lose track of context. You said their was "good evidence".
When he asked for some you didn't give any.

You are now using circular reasoning.

I asked you to prove that anybody on your list above was ever recorded as proclaiming themselves to be a Messiah or Christ, or if you can find anyone else in antiquity who mentions them as being considered a Messiah or Christ.

All you do is point back to the Wiki link as if it proves anything. It proves nothing, except how gullible you are to swallow wholesale whatever anyone feeds you, and not actually investigate for the truth.

The truth is that there is absolutely NOBODY mentioned from the 1st century, aside from this Jesus fellow, who was ever considered to be a Messiah or Christ.

NOBODY.

Swallow your pride and learn something from this.

Attempted deflection.

Attempting to divert attention form the fact that names have been provided.
Any reader will see the desperate attempt at diversion.

Poster asked for names.

Names have been provided. .

No specific source was, a priori, either requested, or agreed upon.

Pathetic.

Assuming the "superior" (old man) position, as poster always does.
Patronizing.

[Free]

Quote:Attempted deflection.

Attempting to divert attention form the fact that names have been provided. Any reader will see the desperate attempt at diversion.

This is pathetic.

Using your reasoning, I can put up a list of names of the people posting on this forum and, despite having no evidence whatsoever, claim them all to be aliens from Mars.

You might be able to fool some people here, but this forum is full of highly intelligent people who know exactly what you are trying to do here.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Enough of you.

Back to you Mark.

[Bucky Ball]

(11-11-2012 04:45 PM)Free Wrote:  

(11-11-2012 03:59 PM)Janus Wrote:  Really? OK, I'm waiting for that "pretty good evidence". I'm sure we all are. Feel Free to lay that "pretty good evidence" on us.

Around 0 AD the messiahs were a cottage industry in Palestine. There was one on every second streetcorner, complete with disciples, mindless followers, and groupies. The sects were coming out of the woodwork wherever you looked. So the fact that this Jesus sect eventually came out on top was pure chance. A throw of the dice. Xtians could just as easily have turned out worshipping one Timothy, Mustafa, or Ali today...
Of course then they wouldn't have been called Xtians, but rather Timotheans, Mustachios, or Aliens...

I keep seeing this assertion about all these innumerable self-proclaimed "Messiahs" that supposedly existed from so many people such as yourself.

Could you please just list 3 of them here for me, as well as the evidence to support your claim.

Thank you.

Yes, any reader CAN see what's happening here.

3 names were requested.
Many names were provided, but multiple posters.

4 of them were from a source which poster used in other thread as reliable.

Apart from that, it has come to light, in this discussion, that while using the source, (The Jewish Antiquities),
poster apparently had not actually read it, even while attempting to make us think he has a background in the
history of the period, otherwise he would have known that was a major content of the Josephus text.

Readers will judge for themselves what to make of all this, and what it does to credibility of posters.

One asked for 3 names.
The other provided four.
Yet somehow this is still not good enough.
Obviously, it's about "something else".

[Free]

Quote:3 names were requested. Many names were provided, but multiple posters.4 of them were from a source which poster used in other thread as reliable. One asked for 3 names. The other provided four. Yet somehow this is still not good enough. Obviously, it's about "something else".

Providing names did not prove as an answer to the question I posed. All the names you provided failed to be accompanied with any evidence at all that any of those people had ever self proclaimed themselves to be a Messiah or Christ, and you also provided no evidence at all that anyone from ancient times had ever mentioned anything about any of those people ever being considered as a Messiah or Christ.

In short, you have utterly failed to answer my question, since you still have not found one single instance of anyone from the 1st century who ever proclaimed themselves as being a Messiah or Christ. Just because you find a list of people on Wiki does not prove anything at all, since the Wiki link does not provide any evidence that those people qualify as 1st century self-proclaimed Messiahs/Christs.

Quote:Apart from that, it has come to light, in this discussion, that while using the source, (The Jewish Antiquities), poster apparently had not actually read it, even while attempting to make us think he has a background in the history of the period, otherwise he would have known that a major content of the Josephus text.

Considering that I am educating you about how none of Josephus' works mentions the word "Messiah," and also how he only uses the word "Christ" in relation to Jesus, anyone with a reasonable mind would justifiably question your assertion that I haven't read it.

(Just for the record, as a hobby I have been re-writing Antiquities of the Jews for the past two years to update it into modern English, and have it about 60% finished. Rather hard to do if I didn't read it, don't you think?)

Quote:Readers will judge for themselves what to make of all this, and what it does to credibility of posters.

I am fully confident that they will.

[Bucky Ball]

This poster provided 4 names from Josephus, as stated above.
Above poster continues deflection attempt, (and apparent lying) about knowledge of the contents of Josephus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Peraea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athronges , http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/mes...nts03.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_ben_Judah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/mes...nts08.html

All mentioned in Josephus.

Other claimants : (sources are included)
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/mes...nts00.html

Montanus of Phrygia. Claimed he was the reincarnation of the Holy Spirit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism

Some people thought that The Righteous One, the founder of the Essenes, was the messiah.
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0160EsseneQ.php

Some people think Jesus was an Essene, and did not claim messiahship. He did not claim messiahship in Q, or in Mark, ( as the whole theme of mark was his "secret nature"). http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/jlgi/jlgi05.htm

Some of the Essenes thought John the Baptizer was the messiah.
http://www.nazoreans.com/son_of_man.html

It's quite possible some of the apostles were Sicarii, (zealots with long, thin knives).
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ab...mmad_2.htm
And possibly Judas betaryed him, as he was a Sicarii, who was disillusioned in Jebus.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/holy_week/...betray.htm

Menahem was thought by many Jews to be the messiah :
"Rabbinical tradition alludes to Menahem's Messiahship when stating that the Messiah's name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah (Sanh. 98b); and according to Geiger("Zeitschrift," vii. 176-178), " http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...85-zealots

Josephus himself, was OPPOSED to messianism, therefore would not specifically name, himself, anyone with that title, (proving the interpolation is not his).
http://www.gottnotes.com/ArticlesJosephus.html
And don't forget, Josephus NEVER mentioned Jesus in the context of messianism, anyway. The interpolated text is an obvious forgery.

http://lhim.org/audio/christian_worldvie...0Jesus.pdf

In acts 5:37, Gamaliel, during the trial , refers to Judas the Galilean, as having been someone who *claimed * equivalent status with Jebus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_of_Galilee
http://www.religioustolerance.org/unter01.htm

3 more miracle working "messiah equivalents" : Apollonius, Peregrinus, and Alexander : http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/r...kooks.html

Interesting that Josephus clearly has no real knowledge of early Hebrew history. He takes the torah texts literally, in the early chapters. Things that Archaeology has clearly debunked. It makes one wonder what he thought he was using for sources, as he is clearly, and obviously wrong about so many things, in the early history.

[Mark Fulton]

(11-11-2012 05:30 PM)Free Wrote:  

Quote:Here you go.

Thank you, please read below.

Quote:Hint : We gave him the link to the names in another thread. He either didn't bother to click on it, or hopes you didn't notice. (And since I did provide a reference, he *couldn't be talking about me.)

Actually, I did check out the Wiki reference, and it made me wonder how much further investigation you and Janus did to support the claims made by that Wiki title of "Jewish Messiah Claimant."


Are both of you aware that not one of the people on the list from the 1st century has ever been actually entitled as "Messiah" or "Christ?" Nor, has any of them ever been referred to in any way as a Messiah or Christ in antiquity?


Hmmm...


Please find me just ONE person other than Jesus who actually was entitled, or even directly referred to, as "Messiah" or "Christ."

I keep hearing this "assertion" from numerous different people online about the existence of all these so-called "Messiahs and Christs," but for the life of me I have been completely unable to find a single stitch of evidence of anyone else from the 1st century being referred to as "Messiah" or "Christ."


Thank you.

Hi Free, the reason you keep hearing about them is because there were so many.


In Yeshua’s day there was a widespread hope among most Jews that a Messiahwould lead the people in a revolt to establish the kingdom of God, in which the world’s wealth would be distributed evenly, not condensed in Roman hands and aristocratic families. Josephus, writing in the late first century, explains this:“That which chiefly excited them to war was an ambiguous prophecy, which was also found in the sacred books, that at that time someone, within their country should arise, that should obtain the empire of the whole world. For this they had spoken of one of their nation; and many wise men were deceived with the interpretation” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews).

Two secular Romans say something similar:“There had spread all over the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated for men coming from Judea to rule the world.” (Seutonius, Life of Vespasian, 4.5).“The majority [</INS>of the Jews]</INS> were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judea would go forth men destined to rule the world.” (Tacitus, Histories 5.13).

Throughout the first century revolutionary groups of zealots led by hopeful messianic leaders commonly formed, promised apocalyptic deliverance, but achieved nothing lasting.

The Qumran community, who compiled the Dead Sea Scrolls, was one such group. They had a pathological hatred for the Romans (whom they called the “kittim”) and the Sadducees. After years of Roman domination, they dreamed of a bloody revenge. A part of the Scrolls describes a fantasy of a battle in which the Kittim were crushed:“This shall be a time of salvation for people of God, and age of dominion for all the members of His company, and of everlasting destruction for the company of Satan… The dominion of the Kittim shall come to an end and iniquity shall be vanquished, leaving no remnant for the sons of darkness, there shall be no escape. The sons of righteousness shall shine over all the ends of earth; they shall go on shining until all the seasons of darkness are consumed and, at the season appointed by God, His exalted greatness shall shine eternally to the peace, blessing, glory, and long life of all the sons of light”(1QM1). The leader of the Essenian army who led them in this fantasized battle is unequivocally called the “messiah” (http://religiousstudies.uncc.edu/people/...4q521.html). They were obviously fanatical and totally deluded. None of this ever came true.


The poorer classes pondered over this political pipe dream.Any charismatic Jew brave enough to claim he was the messiah could soon collect a gang of Galilean paupers to back him up, particularly if he was said to be a descendant of David. A young Yeshua must have wondered who the messiah was going to be.

Judas, son of Ezekias, was one....
Galileans were so enraged with the Roman occupation they started skirmishes in 4 BCE, possibly the year Yeshua was born. Judas, son of Ezekias, gathered together a band of bandits who broke into the royal armory at Sepphoris, and stole weapons and money. Further south at Jericho, 30 kilometers from Jerusalem, another Jew named Simon led a pack who torched the royal palace. A shepherd named Athronges raised a rabble that roamed the countryside for a few months. Soon most of Galilee was in revolt. The Roman army responded with brutal force by marching into Galilee, burning towns and villages, and crucifying anyone resisting Roman rule. Three thousand Jews were massacred. There must have been much terror and many innocent people murdered. (http://www.josephus.org/causesOfWar.htm).
There is no mention of this violence in the Gospels, yet Mary, Joseph and their families must have been involved, either as participants or observers. Mary was a young girl vulnerable to rampaging troops. It is possible Yeshua’s biological father was a Roman soldier.

Judas of Galilee was another one....
Zealots were practitioners of armed military resistance against the Romans. As such they were more a militant political than a religious movement, but as with most things Jewish, their ideals were inspired by their religion. Galilee was the heartland of zealotry. Judas of Galilee (not to be confused with Judas Iscariot, the disciple - who was also a zealot) was an important zealot figure in 6 CE. This is part of what Josephus had to say about him.“Judas the Galilean was the author of the fourth branch of Jewish philosophy. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord.”
Josephus didn’t document what happened to Judas, but interestingly the author of Acts, wrote, “And then there was Judas the Galilean, at the time of the census, who attracted crowds of supporters; but he got killed too and all of his followers dispersed” (Acts 5:38, NJB). The author didn’t mention that Roman soldiers killed Judas because he didn’t want readers drawing parallels with Jesus. We know from other historians that most of Judas’ followers weren’t dispersed; they were killed in battle or captured and crucified.


Then there were three others in the first Jewish war...Josephus writes that there were a number of prominent zealots who entered Jerusalem and claimed they were the messiah.

The first was Menahem. Josephus states, “In the meantime, one Menahem, the son of that Judas, who was called the Galilean, took some of the men of note with him, and retired to Masada, where he broke open King Herod's armory, and gave arms not only to his own people, but to other robbers also. These he made use of for a guard, and returned in the state of a king to Jerusalem; he became the leader of the sedition.”Menahem captured the governor's palace at Jerusalem, laid siege to some minor Roman fortifications, and ordered the execution of the high priest Ananias. At this point, as the only leader of the Jewish revolt, he could boast remarkable successes. However, he incurred the wrath of Ananias’ son, Eleasar, who was the leader of the temple guard. Josephus continues:“The overthrow of the places of strength, and the death of the high priest Ananias, so puffed up Menahem, that he became barbarously cruel; and as he thought he had no antagonist to dispute the management of affairs with him, he was no better than an insupportable tyrant. But Eleasar and his party made an assault upon him in the temple, for he went up thither to worship in a pompous manner, and adorned with royal garments, and had his followers with him in their armor. Eleasar and his party fell violently upon him, as did also the rest of the people; taking up stones to attack him withal, they threw them at the scholar, and thought, that if he were once ruined, the entire sedition would fall to the ground. Menahem and his party made resistance for a while, but when they perceived that the whole multitude were falling upon them, they fled which way every one was able; those that were caught were slain, and those that hid themselves were searched for. A few of them escaped privately to Masada. As for Menahem himself, he ran away to the place called Ophla, and there lay skulking in private; but they took him alive, and drew him out before them all; they then tortured him with many sorts of torments, and after all slew him, as they did by those that were captains under him also.” Menahem’s moment of glory was short-lived.

Simon bar Giora was a more significant messiah, a competent commander of forty thousand soldiers. He set foot in the city in the spring of 69 CE. Archaeologists have unearthed coins in Jerusalem that have Simon’s stamp on them.

Finally, there was John of Gischala. In the first stages of the war, he and Josephus commanded armies in Northern Galilee. John and six thousand men later travelled south to defend Jerusalem.

[Bucky Ball]

(11-11-2012 09:22 PM)Free Wrote:  Just for the record, as a hobby I have been re-writing Antiquities of the Jews for the past two years to update it into modern English, and have it about 60% finished. Rather hard to do if I didn't read it, don't you think ?

Sure you are, (wink wink). You just happened to miss all the pages and pages where he was talking about all the false messiahs, and how he spent his life trying to prove Vespasian was the messiah.