Who was Saint Paul?
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11-11-2012, 07:30 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2012 07:42 PM by Bucky Ball.)
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(11-11-2012 07:21 PM)Free Wrote:(11-11-2012 07:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Sorry. I just did. And your Josephus talks about them. Here's some more from the Wiki link. So you really never did read Josephus. Amazing. Simon of Peraea (c. 4 BCE), a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled and was killed by the Romans. Athronges (c. 3 CE), a shepherd turned rebel leader. Menahem ben Judah , allegedly son of Judas of Galilee, partook in a revolt against Agrippa II before being slain by a rival Zealot leader. Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), founded a short-lived Jewish state before being defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War. Moses of Crete (?), who in about 440–470 convinced the Jews of Crete to attempt to walk into the sea to return to Israel; he disappeared after that disaster. You seem to lose track of context. You said their was "good evidence". When he asked for some you didn't give any. Insufferable know-it-all. ![]() |
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11-11-2012, 07:43 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2012 07:48 PM by Free.)
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(11-11-2012 07:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:You most certainly did not.(11-11-2012 07:21 PM)Free Wrote: Red Herring, all of it.I just did. And your Josephus talks about them. Vespasian? You think Josephus regarded him as a Messiah? You are confusing your history. What Josephus did was reinterpret Messianic prophesies to predict that Vespasian would rule the entire world. He did not say that Vespasian, a Roman, would become the Jewish Messiah. That's ridiculous. Are you also not aware that Josephus not ONCE mentions the word "Messiah" in his works of Antiquities of the Jews or The Jewish War? Also, are you not aware that Josephus only mentions the word "Christ" in reference to Jesus, and no one else in all his works? Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help! |
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11-11-2012, 07:57 PM
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:I just did. And your Josephus talks about them. You are now using circular reasoning. I asked you to prove that anybody on your list above was ever recorded as proclaiming themselves to be a Messiah or Christ, or if you can find anyone else in antiquity who mentions them as being considered a Messiah or Christ. All you do is point back to the Wiki link as if it proves anything. It proves nothing, except how gullible you are to swallow wholesale whatever anyone feeds you, and not actually investigate for the truth. The truth is that there is absolutely NOBODY mentioned from the 1st century, aside from this Jesus fellow, who was ever considered to be a Messiah or Christ. NOBODY. Swallow your pride and learn something from this. Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help! |
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11-11-2012, 08:10 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2012 08:14 PM by Bucky Ball.)
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(11-11-2012 07:57 PM)Free Wrote:Quote:I just did. And your Josephus talks about them. Attempted deflection. Attempting to divert attention form the fact that names have been provided. Any reader will see the desperate attempt at diversion. Poster asked for names. Names have been provided. . No specific source was, a priori, either requested, or agreed upon. Pathetic. Assuming the "superior" (old man) position, as poster always does. Patronizing. ![]() Insufferable know-it-all. ![]() |
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11-11-2012, 08:19 PM
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:Attempted deflection. This is pathetic. Using your reasoning, I can put up a list of names of the people posting on this forum and, despite having no evidence whatsoever, claim them all to be aliens from Mars. You might be able to fool some people here, but this forum is full of highly intelligent people who know exactly what you are trying to do here. Stop embarrassing yourself. Enough of you. Back to you Mark. Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help! |
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11-11-2012, 08:54 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-11-2012 09:06 PM by Bucky Ball.)
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(11-11-2012 04:45 PM)Free Wrote:(11-11-2012 03:59 PM)Janus Wrote: Really? OK, I'm waiting for that "pretty good evidence". I'm sure we all are. Feel Free to lay that "pretty good evidence" on us. Yes, any reader CAN see what's happening here. 3 names were requested. Many names were provided, but multiple posters. 4 of them were from a source which poster used in other thread as reliable. Apart from that, it has come to light, in this discussion, that while using the source, (The Jewish Antiquities), poster apparently had not actually read it, even while attempting to make us think he has a background in the history of the period, otherwise he would have known that was a major content of the Josephus text. Readers will judge for themselves what to make of all this, and what it does to credibility of posters. One asked for 3 names. The other provided four. Yet somehow this is still not good enough. Obviously, it's about "something else". ![]() Insufferable know-it-all. ![]() |
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11-11-2012, 09:22 PM
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:3 names were requested. Many names were provided, but multiple posters.4 of them were from a source which poster used in other thread as reliable. One asked for 3 names. The other provided four. Yet somehow this is still not good enough. Obviously, it's about "something else". Providing names did not prove as an answer to the question I posed. All the names you provided failed to be accompanied with any evidence at all that any of those people had ever self proclaimed themselves to be a Messiah or Christ, and you also provided no evidence at all that anyone from ancient times had ever mentioned anything about any of those people ever being considered as a Messiah or Christ. In short, you have utterly failed to answer my question, since you still have not found one single instance of anyone from the 1st century who ever proclaimed themselves as being a Messiah or Christ. Just because you find a list of people on Wiki does not prove anything at all, since the Wiki link does not provide any evidence that those people qualify as 1st century self-proclaimed Messiahs/Christs. Quote:Apart from that, it has come to light, in this discussion, that while using the source, (The Jewish Antiquities), poster apparently had not actually read it, even while attempting to make us think he has a background in the history of the period, otherwise he would have known that a major content of the Josephus text. Considering that I am educating you about how none of Josephus' works mentions the word "Messiah," and also how he only uses the word "Christ" in relation to Jesus, anyone with a reasonable mind would justifiably question your assertion that I haven't read it. (Just for the record, as a hobby I have been re-writing Antiquities of the Jews for the past two years to update it into modern English, and have it about 60% finished. Rather hard to do if I didn't read it, don't you think?) Quote:Readers will judge for themselves what to make of all this, and what it does to credibility of posters. I am fully confident that they will. ![]() Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help! |
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11-11-2012, 09:47 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2012 03:42 PM by Bucky Ball.)
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
This poster provided 4 names from Josephus, as stated above.
Above poster continues deflection attempt, (and apparent lying) about knowledge of the contents of Josephus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Peraea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athronges , http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/mes...nts03.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_ben_Judah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/mes...nts08.html All mentioned in Josephus. Other claimants : (sources are included) http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/mes...nts00.html Montanus of Phrygia. Claimed he was the reincarnation of the Holy Spirit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism Some people thought that The Righteous One, the founder of the Essenes, was the messiah. http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0160EsseneQ.php Some people think Jesus was an Essene, and did not claim messiahship. He did not claim messiahship in Q, or in Mark, ( as the whole theme of mark was his "secret nature"). http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/jlgi/jlgi05.htm Some of the Essenes thought John the Baptizer was the messiah. http://www.nazoreans.com/son_of_man.html It's quite possible some of the apostles were Sicarii, (zealots with long, thin knives). http://www.answering-christianity.com/ab...mmad_2.htm And possibly Judas betaryed him, as he was a Sicarii, who was disillusioned in Jebus. http://www.thenazareneway.com/holy_week/...betray.htm Menahem was thought by many Jews to be the messiah : "Rabbinical tradition alludes to Menahem's Messiahship when stating that the Messiah's name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah (Sanh. 98b); and according to Geiger("Zeitschrift," vii. 176-178), " http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...85-zealots Josephus himself, was OPPOSED to messianism, therefore would not specifically name, himself, anyone with that title, (proving the interpolation is not his). http://www.gottnotes.com/ArticlesJosephus.html And don't forget, Josephus NEVER mentioned Jesus in the context of messianism, anyway. The interpolated text is an obvious forgery. http://lhim.org/audio/christian_worldvie...0Jesus.pdf In acts 5:37, Gamaliel, during the trial , refers to Judas the Galilean, as having been someone who *claimed * equivalent status with Jebus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_of_Galilee http://www.religioustolerance.org/unter01.htm 3 more miracle working "messiah equivalents" : Apollonius, Peregrinus, and Alexander : http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/r...kooks.html Interesting that Josephus clearly has no real knowledge of early Hebrew history. He takes the torah texts literally, in the early chapters. Things that Archaeology has clearly debunked. It makes one wonder what he thought he was using for sources, as he is clearly, and obviously wrong about so many things, in the early history. Insufferable know-it-all. ![]() |
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11-11-2012, 09:49 PM
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(11-11-2012 05:30 PM)Free Wrote:Quote:Here you go. Hi Free, the reason you keep hearing about them is because there were so many. In Yeshua’s day there was a widespread hope among most Jews that a Messiahwould lead the people in a revolt to establish the kingdom of God, in which the world’s wealth would be distributed evenly, not condensed in Roman hands and aristocratic families. Josephus, writing in the late first century, explains this:“That which chiefly excited them to war was an ambiguous prophecy, which was also found in the sacred books, that at that time someone, within their country should arise, that should obtain the empire of the whole world. For this they had spoken of one of their nation; and many wise men were deceived with the interpretation” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews). Two secular Romans say something similar:“There had spread all over the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated for men coming from Judea to rule the world.” (Seutonius, Life of Vespasian, 4.5).“The majority [</INS>of the Jews]</INS> were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judea would go forth men destined to rule the world.” (Tacitus, Histories 5.13). Throughout the first century revolutionary groups of zealots led by hopeful messianic leaders commonly formed, promised apocalyptic deliverance, but achieved nothing lasting. The Qumran community, who compiled the Dead Sea Scrolls, was one such group. They had a pathological hatred for the Romans (whom they called the “kittim”) and the Sadducees. After years of Roman domination, they dreamed of a bloody revenge. A part of the Scrolls describes a fantasy of a battle in which the Kittim were crushed:“This shall be a time of salvation for people of God, and age of dominion for all the members of His company, and of everlasting destruction for the company of Satan… The dominion of the Kittim shall come to an end and iniquity shall be vanquished, leaving no remnant for the sons of darkness, there shall be no escape. The sons of righteousness shall shine over all the ends of earth; they shall go on shining until all the seasons of darkness are consumed and, at the season appointed by God, His exalted greatness shall shine eternally to the peace, blessing, glory, and long life of all the sons of light”(1QM1). The leader of the Essenian army who led them in this fantasized battle is unequivocally called the “messiah” (http://religiousstudies.uncc.edu/people/...4q521.html). They were obviously fanatical and totally deluded. None of this ever came true. The poorer classes pondered over this political pipe dream.Any charismatic Jew brave enough to claim he was the messiah could soon collect a gang of Galilean paupers to back him up, particularly if he was said to be a descendant of David. A young Yeshua must have wondered who the messiah was going to be. Judas, son of Ezekias, was one.... Galileans were so enraged with the Roman occupation they started skirmishes in 4 BCE, possibly the year Yeshua was born. Judas, son of Ezekias, gathered together a band of bandits who broke into the royal armory at Sepphoris, and stole weapons and money. Further south at Jericho, 30 kilometers from Jerusalem, another Jew named Simon led a pack who torched the royal palace. A shepherd named Athronges raised a rabble that roamed the countryside for a few months. Soon most of Galilee was in revolt. The Roman army responded with brutal force by marching into Galilee, burning towns and villages, and crucifying anyone resisting Roman rule. Three thousand Jews were massacred. There must have been much terror and many innocent people murdered. (http://www.josephus.org/causesOfWar.htm). There is no mention of this violence in the Gospels, yet Mary, Joseph and their families must have been involved, either as participants or observers. Mary was a young girl vulnerable to rampaging troops. It is possible Yeshua’s biological father was a Roman soldier. Judas of Galilee was another one.... Zealots were practitioners of armed military resistance against the Romans. As such they were more a militant political than a religious movement, but as with most things Jewish, their ideals were inspired by their religion. Galilee was the heartland of zealotry. Judas of Galilee (not to be confused with Judas Iscariot, the disciple - who was also a zealot) was an important zealot figure in 6 CE. This is part of what Josephus had to say about him.“Judas the Galilean was the author of the fourth branch of Jewish philosophy. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord.” Josephus didn’t document what happened to Judas, but interestingly the author of Acts, wrote, “And then there was Judas the Galilean, at the time of the census, who attracted crowds of supporters; but he got killed too and all of his followers dispersed” (Acts 5:38, NJB). The author didn’t mention that Roman soldiers killed Judas because he didn’t want readers drawing parallels with Jesus. We know from other historians that most of Judas’ followers weren’t dispersed; they were killed in battle or captured and crucified. Then there were three others in the first Jewish war...Josephus writes that there were a number of prominent zealots who entered Jerusalem and claimed they were the messiah. The first was Menahem. Josephus states, “In the meantime, one Menahem, the son of that Judas, who was called the Galilean, took some of the men of note with him, and retired to Masada, where he broke open King Herod's armory, and gave arms not only to his own people, but to other robbers also. These he made use of for a guard, and returned in the state of a king to Jerusalem; he became the leader of the sedition.”Menahem captured the governor's palace at Jerusalem, laid siege to some minor Roman fortifications, and ordered the execution of the high priest Ananias. At this point, as the only leader of the Jewish revolt, he could boast remarkable successes. However, he incurred the wrath of Ananias’ son, Eleasar, who was the leader of the temple guard. Josephus continues:“The overthrow of the places of strength, and the death of the high priest Ananias, so puffed up Menahem, that he became barbarously cruel; and as he thought he had no antagonist to dispute the management of affairs with him, he was no better than an insupportable tyrant. But Eleasar and his party made an assault upon him in the temple, for he went up thither to worship in a pompous manner, and adorned with royal garments, and had his followers with him in their armor. Eleasar and his party fell violently upon him, as did also the rest of the people; taking up stones to attack him withal, they threw them at the scholar, and thought, that if he were once ruined, the entire sedition would fall to the ground. Menahem and his party made resistance for a while, but when they perceived that the whole multitude were falling upon them, they fled which way every one was able; those that were caught were slain, and those that hid themselves were searched for. A few of them escaped privately to Masada. As for Menahem himself, he ran away to the place called Ophla, and there lay skulking in private; but they took him alive, and drew him out before them all; they then tortured him with many sorts of torments, and after all slew him, as they did by those that were captains under him also.” Menahem’s moment of glory was short-lived. Simon bar Giora was a more significant messiah, a competent commander of forty thousand soldiers. He set foot in the city in the spring of 69 CE. Archaeologists have unearthed coins in Jerusalem that have Simon’s stamp on them. Finally, there was John of Gischala. In the first stages of the war, he and Josephus commanded armies in Northern Galilee. John and six thousand men later travelled south to defend Jerusalem. |
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12-11-2012, 01:24 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2012 09:21 AM by Bucky Ball.)
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RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(11-11-2012 09:22 PM)Free Wrote: Just for the record, as a hobby I have been re-writing Antiquities of the Jews for the past two years to update it into modern English, and have it about 60% finished. Rather hard to do if I didn't read it, don't you think ? Sure you are, ![]() Insufferable know-it-all. ![]() |
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