Who was Saint Paul?
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24-11-2012, 10:32 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:
Quote:"I've thought about it, and see nothing as being impossible. Paul had his own church going, rivaling other early Christian doctrines. Also, as demonstrated in this post a few lines above, we can see why Paul did not mention the supposed exploits of Jesus. He viewed them as fables."

Free....the fact remains Paul rambled on about his "Christ" and said virtually nothing about a once living person. If he thought his "Christ" was a recently departed once living person he would have documented details about that person...but he doesn't!

I have pointed out many of those details you keep saying don't exist. Again ...

1. The Last Supper. (1Cor 11:34 - 36)
2. Jesus was betrayed. (1Cor 11:33)
3. Jesus was in the presence of Pontius Pilate. (1Tim 6:13)
4. Jesus was crucified. (Numerous places)
5. Jesus was resurrected. (Numerous places)
6. Baptism by water. (Various places)
7. Miracles being performed as per Gospel instructions from Jesus. (1 Cor 12:10, 12:28, 12:29, Gal 3:5)
8. Gospel being preached as per Jesus' commandment. (Numerous places)
9. He names several of the original apostles. (Various places)

You seem to be hung up on Paul not quoting much from the written gospels as being some kind of evidence that Paul's "Jesus" didn't exist. The fact remains that the details I have listed above are all found in the gospel records, as well as non biblical sources. Since those detail bear a striking identity to what we determine to be the historical Yeshua, I find any argument that Paul's Jesus was not the same person as to be unrealistic and incomprehensible.

Quote:Consider an analogy. I want to start a religion. I think John Lennon was God. The new religion is one day to be called "Beatleanity." John Lennon is my recently departed hero. How am I going to convince people to join my John Lennon cult? Well....I'm going to play his music, make a movie about him, put his pictures on the internet, talk to Yoko, his mother, his son, his brothers and sisters, and anyone who knew him. I'll bad mouth anyone who disagrees with my image of him, and I'll say why. I'd promote his life's story, start a fan club, and sit back and watch the cash roll in.

What I won't be doing is saying "listen here fuckers, this spirit type guy died for you and that's all you need to know. Believe that and you'll go to Beatle heaven. If you don't have faith in what I'm telling you, you're fucked. If any of you play Rolling Stones records I curse you. Yet that is what Paul did.


Like any kind of folk-lore/legend, Paul simply took a few facts about this Jesus fellow and built a religion around an actual person. It's really that simple, Mark.

Quote:I rest my case that Paul's "Christ" wasn't Jeebus, but someone/something else.

R.I.P.

Smile

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24-11-2012, 10:44 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2012 08:18 AM by Free.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:
Quote:This does not make sense to me. Of course Paul never met Jesus in person as far as we know. However, we do know that Paul was influenced by the other Apostles of Jesus, such as Peter and James, who were from the Nazarene sect.

They would have given Paul the information he had about Jesus, such as his crucifixion. Other info about his resurrection likely came from the gentile Christians from stories spread among the Greeks. The info about any other supposed miracles would also likely come from the Greeks, yet would be rejected by Paul due to his Jewish roots in much the same way as the Nazarene sect rejected such fables.



Actually we know that is not the case. (Paul didn't write Timothy, BTW). And the letter writer Paul, (who is not the same Paul as the Paul of Acts, which we know from the very different philosophical outlook on some important points), tells us so, in Galatians 1:11 ""Let me make it clear, friends, the gospel I announced does not conform to human expectations. I say this because it was NOT transmitted to me by anyone, nor did anyone teach it to me. Rather it came to me as an insight from God, about Jesus as God's Anointed." In fact before that, in the same letter he even talks about "preaching another gospel", which is clearly not a *written* document. The Paul in Acts said he talked to the Apostles.

Don't forget, Trypho was a\n invention. There was no Trypho. He was a literary device. He proves nothing.


We may be confusing two seperate situations here.

Firstly, what Paul says in his letters about the "gospel he announced" does not neccessarily mean that it does not also include some factual data about Jesus in regards to his crucifixion. As we both know, Paul was full of shit, and an egomaniac. He had to make up his own gospel about Jesus in response to what James and Peter were doing. So he claimed to have a "direct line" to Jesus to "one-up" the Nazarenes, and avoids preaching anything they are preaching which includes some facts about Jesus found in the gospel records.

Paul's gospel does indeed include many things we find in the canon, as illustrated in an earlier post to Mark above.

Also, Trypho may indeed have been an invention, but even if he was it's meaningless. It's what is said in the text that matters, and just because Trypho is an invention has no bearing whatsoever that what Justin wrote is evidence of what Justin knew. It doesn't matter if Justin created Trypho and if Trypho wasn't real. All that matters is what Justin said, and what he had Trypho say.

The question you need to answer for yourself is, "Even if Trypho was a fictional character, how does that change anything that was written in the text?"

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-11-2012, 09:06 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(24-11-2012 10:44 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Actually we know that is not the case. (Paul didn't write Timothy, BTW). And the letter writer Paul, (who is not the same Paul as the Paul of Acts, which we know from the very different philosophical outlook on some important points), tells us so, in Galatians 1:11 ""Let me make it clear, friends, the gospel I announced does not conform to human expectations. I say this because it was NOT transmitted to me by anyone, nor did anyone teach it to me. Rather it came to me as an insight from God, about Jesus as God's Anointed." In fact before that, in the same letter he even talks about "preaching another gospel", which is clearly not a *written* document. The Paul in Acts said he talked to the Apostles.

Don't forget, Trypho was a\n invention. There was no Trypho. He was a literary device. He proves nothing.


We may be confusing two seperate situations here.

Firstly, what Paul says in his letters about the "gospel he announced" does not neccessarily mean that it does not also include some factual data about Jesus in regards to his crucifixion. As we both know, Paul was full of shit, and an egomaniac. He had to make up his own gospel about Jesus in response to what James and Peter were doing. So he claimed to have a "direct line" to Jesus to "one-up" the Nazarenes, and avoids preaching anything they are preaching which includes some facts about Jesus found in the gospel records.

Paul's gospel does indeed include many things we find in the canon, as illustrated in an earlier post to Mark above.

Also, Trypho may indeed have been an invention, but even if he was it's meaningless. It's what is said in the text that matters, and just because Trypho is an invention has no bearing whatsoever that what Justin wrote is evidence of what Justin knew. It doesn't matter if Justin created Trypho and if Trypho wasn't real. All that matters is what Justin said, and what he had Trypho say.

The question you need to answer for yourself is, "Even if Trypho was a fictional character, how does that change anything that was written in the text?"
Sorry. It was an age of "pious fraud". What Justin wrote is only "evidence" of what Justin wrote, not "what Justin knew".
Trypho said what Justin wanted him to say in order to shoot it down. Nothing any of them wrote is reliable, in any way.

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25-11-2012, 12:21 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(25-11-2012 09:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 10:44 PM)Free Wrote:  We may be confusing two seperate situations here.

Firstly, what Paul says in his letters about the "gospel he announced" does not neccessarily mean that it does not also include some factual data about Jesus in regards to his crucifixion. As we both know, Paul was full of shit, and an egomaniac. He had to make up his own gospel about Jesus in response to what James and Peter were doing. So he claimed to have a "direct line" to Jesus to "one-up" the Nazarenes, and avoids preaching anything they are preaching which includes some facts about Jesus found in the gospel records.

Paul's gospel does indeed include many things we find in the canon, as illustrated in an earlier post to Mark above.

Also, Trypho may indeed have been an invention, but even if he was it's meaningless. It's what is said in the text that matters, and just because Trypho is an invention has no bearing whatsoever that what Justin wrote is evidence of what Justin knew. It doesn't matter if Justin created Trypho and if Trypho wasn't real. All that matters is what Justin said, and what he had Trypho say.

The question you need to answer for yourself is, "Even if Trypho was a fictional character, how does that change anything that was written in the text?"
Sorry. It was an age of "pious fraud". What Justin wrote is only "evidence" of what Justin wrote, not "what Justin knew".
Trypho said what Justin wanted him to say in order to shoot it down. Nothing any of them wrote is reliable, in any way.


But should we look at such things as being only singularly dimensional and and then make a conclusion?

"Pious fraud" is but just one way to view the evidence. It's by no means the only way to view the evidence.

When we look at what Justin wrote, we see much more than pious fraud, since he literally quotes verbatim numerous gospel quotes attributed to the Gospel of Matthew. The following example- which I posted earlier in response to Mark's rebuttal- is indisputable:


How about the following quote from Dialogue with Trypho as we compare it to Matthew:


Quote:Dialogue With Trypho


Wherefore also our Christ said,[when He was] on earth, to those who were affirming that Elijah must come before Christ: 'Elijah shall come, and restore all things; but I say unto you, that Elijah has already come, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatsoever they chose.' And it is written, 'Then the disciples understood that He spake to them about John the Baptist.' "

Gospel of Matthew


Mat 17:11 And answering Jesus said to them, Elijah truly shall come first and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatever they desired. Likewise also the Son of Man shall suffer from them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that He spake to them about John the Baptist.

Do you see what I see? Do you not see the verbatim quote of Jesus, and also the verbatim quote of the narrator of the Gospel of Matthew? Do you also not see the words "And it is written?"

What I have just shown you is clear evidence that Trypho was indeed sourcing a written Gospel around AD 130 - 140, and that written Gospel he is quoting from is almost certainly the one and only Gospel of Matthew.

Otherwise, how could he quote the narrator of that Gospel verbatim? (Please acknowledge this point because it is extremely important.)

You see, Bucky, the search for whatever the truth is will force us all to be willing to abandon our own preconceived ideas of what that truth may be. The truth is always dynamic because it changes as more information becomes available or is revealed. If we stay static in what we believe, we inhibit ourselves in regards to progressing towards whatever the truth may be.

No one can be 100% certain as to what the truth is, so the best you or I can ever do is to look at the possible truths the same way we look at a cube. Each face shows us something different, and then by using our reasoning skills in conjunction with the evidence, we can arrive at the most plausible explanation regardless if we like it or not.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-11-2012, 01:16 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:I've just spent an hour trying to get my head around Marcion. Bloody complicated!

I don't think anyone knows how Paul's writings got popular in Rome. I'm guessing....but I think Marcion was the man....the following article suggests he was there in 116CE!

What we need to acknowledge here is rather obvious. Paul wrote a letter to the Romans sometime in the mid 1st century. I would also direct your attention to the 16th Chapter of Romans, which I will quote below. Please read it carefully:

' Wrote:Rom 16:1 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,
Rom 16:2 that you receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that you may assist her in whatever business she has need of you. For she has been a helper of many, and of myself also.
Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my helpers in Christ Jesus,
Rom 16:4 who have laid down their own necks for my life; to whom not only I give thanks, but also the churches of the nations.
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epenetus, who is the first-fruits of Achaia to Christ.
Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labor on us.
Rom 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Rom 16:8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
Rom 16:9 Greet Urbanus, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
Rom 16:10 Greet Apelles, approved in Christ. Greet those who are of Aristobulus' household.
Rom 16:11 Greet Herodion my kinsman. Greet those who are of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord.
Rom 16:12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labor in the Lord. Greet the beloved Persis, who labored much in the Lord.
Rom 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
Rom 16:14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brothers with them.
Rom 16:15 Greet Philologus and Julias, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints with them.
Rom 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. The churches of Christ greet you.
Rom 16:17 And I exhort you, brothers, to watch those making divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches they deceive the hearts of the simple.
Rom 16:19 For your obedience reached to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf, But I would have you truly wise as to good, and simple toward evil.
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Rom 16:21 Timothy my fellow worker, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater my kinsmen, greet you.
Rom 16:22 I, Tertius, who wrote this epistle, greet you in the Lord.
Rom 16:23 Gaius my host, and the host of me and the whole church, greets you. Erastus the steward of the city greets you, and Quartus a brother.
Rom 16:24 May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, having been unvoiced during eternal times;
Rom 16:26 but now has been made plain, and by the prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith;
Rom 16:27 to God only wise be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Do you see what I see, Mark? Do you see Paul addressing numerous Gentile Christians by name in Rome? What does this tell you?

Recall when you said that you believed that the only followers of Jesus who were in Rome at the time of Nero were Nazarenes? How is it then that Paul is addressing numerous Gentiles in Rome?

Paul's letters got popular in Rome because Rome was literally filled with Gentile Christians. Paul tells us constantly that he was sent to minister to the Gentiles, while James and Peter went to the Jews. So if Paul is addressing anybody in Rome, it is without a doubt the Gentile Christians.

As far as Marcion is concerned, your very best resource is going to be Tertullian's 5 books "Against Marcion."

http://www.gnosis.org/library/marcionsection.htm

Meet Marcion, the "Father" of the Gnostics.

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25-11-2012, 01:20 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(25-11-2012 12:21 PM)Free Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 09:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sorry. It was an age of "pious fraud". What Justin wrote is only "evidence" of what Justin wrote, not "what Justin knew".
Trypho said what Justin wanted him to say in order to shoot it down. Nothing any of them wrote is reliable, in any way.


But should we look at such things as being only singularly dimensional and and then make a conclusion?

"Pious fraud" is but just one way to view the evidence. It's by no means the only way to view the evidence.

When we look at what Justin wrote, we see much more than pious fraud, since he literally quotes verbatim numerous gospel quotes attributed to the Gospel of Matthew. The following example- which I posted earlier in response to Mark's rebuttal- is indisputable:


How about the following quote from Dialogue with Trypho as we compare it to Matthew:


Quote:Dialogue With Trypho


Wherefore also our Christ said,[when He was] on earth, to those who were affirming that Elijah must come before Christ: 'Elijah shall come, and restore all things; but I say unto you, that Elijah has already come, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatsoever they chose.' And it is written, 'Then the disciples understood that He spake to them about John the Baptist.' "

Gospel of Matthew


Mat 17:11 And answering Jesus said to them, Elijah truly shall come first and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatever they desired. Likewise also the Son of Man shall suffer from them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that He spake to them about John the Baptist.

Do you see what I see? Do you not see the verbatim quote of Jesus, and also the verbatim quote of the narrator of the Gospel of Matthew? Do you also not see the words "And it is written?"

What I have just shown you is clear evidence that Trypho was indeed sourcing a written Gospel around AD 130 - 140, and that written Gospel he is quoting from is almost certainly the one and only Gospel of Matthew.

Otherwise, how could he quote the narrator of that Gospel verbatim? (Please acknowledge this point because it is extremely important.)

You see, Bucky, the search for whatever the truth is will force us all to be willing to abandon our own preconceived ideas of what that truth may be. The truth is always dynamic because it changes as more information becomes available or is revealed. If we stay static in what we believe, we inhibit ourselves in regards to progressing towards whatever the truth may be.

No one can be 100% certain as to what the truth is, so the best you or I can ever do is to look at the possible truths the same way we look at a cube. Each face shows us something different, and then by using our reasoning skills in conjunction with the evidence, we can arrive at the most plausible explanation regardless if we like it or not.
I see an author, naming himself as Matthew, (possibly a phantom), *saying* he is quoting someone named Jebus. He was never in Yehua's presence, therefore would have had no way of knowing what he said. I see a phantom named Trypho, possibly quoting another possible phantom. It's all a fantacy.

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25-11-2012, 01:25 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:I see an author, naming himself as Matthew, (possibly a phantom), *saying* he is quoting someone named Jebus. He was never in Yehua's presence, therefore would have had no way of knowing what he said. I see a phantom named Trypho, possibly quoting another possible phantom. It's all a fantacy.

You mean "naming himself as Justin?"

I know you see more than that, because you are by no means lacking intelligence.

I know you can see a verbatim quote of Jesus and of the narrator of the Gospel of Matthew.

Shy

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-11-2012, 01:47 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(25-11-2012 01:25 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:I see an author, naming himself as Matthew, (possibly a phantom), *saying* he is quoting someone named Jebus. He was never in Yehua's presence, therefore would have had no way of knowing what he said. I see a phantom named Trypho, possibly quoting another possible phantom. It's all a fantasy.
You mean "naming himself as Justin?"

I know you see more than that, because you are by no means lacking intelligence.

I know you can see a verbatim quote of Jesus and of the narrator of the Gospel of Matthew.

Shy
There is no way anyone knows that is a "verbatim" quote of anyone. I know they are all liars.

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25-11-2012, 03:56 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:
Quote:You mean "naming himself as Justin?"

I know you see more than that, because you are by no means lacking intelligence.

I know you can see a verbatim quote of Jesus and of the narrator of the Gospel of Matthew.



There is no way anyone knows that is a "verbatim" quote of anyone. I know they are all liars.




But we can know.

The text clearly demonstrates that Justin was quoting something that was written via the words, "And it is written."

The text precisely matches that which we see in the Gospel of Matthew, which indicates that he is not using the so-called "Q" source, nor any other known source that had that precise quote.

The only known source that has those verbatim quotes including a quote of a narrator is, in fact, the Gospel of Matthew.

That's the current state of our knowledge. Unless something else is revealed that can demonstrate an alternative, then the current state of our knowledge indicates that Justin Martyr was quoting verbatim from the Gospel of Matthew.

Also, from Justin's "First Apology" we see the following:


Quote:Justin Martyr - First Apology

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.


So there we have "memoirs" created by the Apostles, and they were known as "Gospels." He then quotes again from those Gospels, and also quotes the narrator again, which again is an almost identical quote from Matthew/Luke.


Again ... what is the most reasonable and plausible explanation?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-11-2012, 04:36 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(25-11-2012 03:56 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:There is no way anyone knows that is a "verbatim" quote of anyone. I know they are all liars.




But we can know.

The text clearly demonstrates that Justin was quoting something that was written via the words, "And it is written."

The text precisely matches that which we see in the Gospel of Matthew, which indicates that he is not using the so-called "Q" source, nor any other known source that had that precise quote.

The only known source that has those verbatim quotes including a quote of a narrator is, in fact, the Gospel of Matthew.

That's the current state of our knowledge. Unless something else is revealed that can demonstrate an alternative, then the current state of our knowledge indicates that Justin Martyr was quoting verbatim from the Gospel of Matthew.

Also, from Justin's "First Apology" we see the following:


Quote:Justin Martyr - First Apology

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.


So there we have "memoirs" created by the Apostles, and they were known as "Gospels." He then quotes again from those Gospels, and also quotes the narrator again, which again is an almost identical quote from Matthew/Luke.


Again ... what is the most reasonable and plausible explanation?
That Justin made it up.
No Jew would ever consider eating flesh or drinking blood. It was an abomination. The apostles did not create "memoirs". "Gospels" were statements of belief for use in worship services.
Justin saying "it is written" does not prove anything. You insist on taking them at their word. Methinks you are really a theist.

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