Who was Saint Paul?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-11-2012, 10:49 AM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2012 11:12 AM by Free.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:You are reading with blinkers on. Please take them off. Please read the following as I analyse this very important part of the bible...

I read things with exceptional clarity and that will be demonstrated to you as I examine the rest of your post below and show you the contradictions and other problems within it.


Quote:Imagine saying that about the half brother of the son of God!

So now you admit that James was the half-brother of Jesus and Paul knew it? You will need to do exactly that in order for your argument to work here.

So either you have contradicted yourself in regards to your insistence that what Paul said at "Gal_1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother" is an interpolation, or you have changed your mind, because no where else does Paul say that James was the brother of Jesus.

Which is it?

Quote:It is very clear Paul is claiming James sent him out to evangelize the pagans, and sent Peter out to the Jews.


If this were true, then what was Paul doing for the previous 14+ years before he went up tp Jerusalem? Evangelizing to nobody? You seem to forget that Paul said in Gal 2.1 " Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also."

Paul was already evangelizing the Gentiles long before he went up to Jerusalem. So was Peter already evangelizing to the Jews. This is evident by the following:

Quote:Gal 2:7 - 2:9 On the contrary, when they seen that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter- For He that worked effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles- And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, seen the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


All those in Jerusalem had already seen that the gospel of the uncircumcision and the gospel of circumcision was already being practiced by both Paul and Peter. They "seen the grace that was given unto" Paul, and then merely gave him their blessings to continue it.

Paul and Peter were already evangelizing to the Jews and Gentiles long before they went up to Jerusalem. Also, the quote that Paul made of "For He that worked effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles," was made before James and the others gave their blessing on Paul to continue, and is totally out of sequence with your theory.

In addition to this, approximately half of the bible translations of Gal 2:8 either understand that the word "He" refers to "God" or they capitalize "He" to indicate a deity. They are only half correct. The word "He" refers to "Yeshua," aka, Jesus Christ.

Furthermore, what does Paul say at the very beginning of Galatians? See below:

Quote:Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the deadWink

In the very same letter we are talking about, Paul explicitly tells us that he was not called to be an apostle by any man which would include James, but instead he claims he was called to be an apostle by Jesus Christ himself.

Remember now, we are talking about who called Paul and Peter to apostleship, not evangelize, as demonstrated again below in the very same quote we are talking about:

Quote:Gal 2:8 For He that worked effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles.

And again, the above quote comes before James and anybody else gave Paul their blessing to continue his work with the Gentiles.

So you argument is utterly destroyed by the words of Paul himself in Gal 1.1, Mark. According to Gal 1.1, who called Paul to be an apostle, James, or Jesus? And how many times do we see Paul asserting in his letters that his apostleship comes from Jesus, and nobody else? Almost countless to the point of ad nauseum.

Be honest Mark, otherwise people will nail you to the proverbial cross.

Quote:Free, you are assuming Paul was preaching Jesus' message. He wasn't. He was preaching "my gospel." His message was about his Christ, his mythical spirit, not from Yeshua, a once walking/talking human being.

It doesn't matter in the slightest what Paul was preaching, since this issue has nothing to do with what he was preaching, but only about where his and Peter's apostleship originated from, and it wasn't from James.

It was from Jesus called Christ, according to Paul, and according other records


Quote:Come on! Get a grip on reality!

As per what has been demonstrated by me above, it appears that I am not the one who needs to get out of a fantasy world and "get a grip on reality."

You so desperately want to believe your own theory that you simply cannot be convinced that the evidence is so greatly stacked against you that it makes your position indefensible and untenable. I understand this, because it is what I see in Christians, Muslims, and other people who are trapped into a "belief system."

You are quite unaware that you, as an atheist, are also trapped into a belief system regarding this stuff. Your arguments are easily destroyed by the evidence and by a better argument.

Therefore, I will now summarize by argument against yours:

1. You made a positive claim that indicates that Paul knew that the same Jesus he talks about was the brother of James. A contradiction of your previous statements in this thread.

2. You failed to acknowledge that Paul and Peter were already evangelizing to the Gentiles and Jews before they went up to Jerusalem circa AD 49, which contradicts your view that James called them to be apostles and to evangelize.

3. You failed to acknowledge that the sequence of events from Gal 2:7 - 2.10 demonstrates that both Paul and Peter were called to an apostleship before James and the others gave them their blessing to continue.

4. You fail to acknowledge a consensus that the word "He" in Gal 2.8 very possibly refers to God or a deity such as Christ.

5. Your argument is totally destroyed by the words of Paul at the beginning of the very same letter to the Galatians in which he claims that he was called to be an apostle by Jesus Christ himself, and not by any man.


Galatians 2:8 is clearly talking about an apostleship, and uses that very word in reference to Paul and Peter, and is not at all talking about whether or not James sent Paul out to evangelize the Gentiles.

After what I just did to your argument above, are you certain you really want to continue this?

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2012, 10:55 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
The following may not be directly related to the topic, but I found these videos interesting nonetheless. Both sides (that is, both Bucky Ball, Mark Fulton and Free) should have a look at them. I'm too much of a laymen to make a profound comment on the validity of the analysis offered in them, but I found them to be thought-provoking and informative regardless.






He has a whole bunch of these videos on his channel, you may want to check out the other ones if you liked the above.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vosur's post
29-11-2012, 11:30 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(29-11-2012 10:55 AM)Vosur Wrote:  The following may not be directly related to the topic, but I found these videos interesting nonetheless. Both sides (that is, both Bucky Ball, Mark Fulton and Free) should have a look at them. I'm too much of a laymen to make a profound comment on the validity of the analysis offered in them, but I found them to be thought-provoking and informative regardless.






He has a whole bunch of these videos on his channel, you may want to check out the other ones if you liked the above.

This only seems to indicate that one of the earliest forms of the spelling of the word "Christian" was "Chrestian."

Since he uses the oldest codex of the Bible, and the word "Chrestian" appears to be corrected to Christian, then it is without doubt it still refers to the followers of Jesus.

I have no problem with this.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2012, 12:54 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:I agree Paul was totally deluded, but have you any evidence that Paul thought Jesus called him to be an apostle? The road to Damascus story doesn't cut it, I want you to quote Paul if you can.

Sure, easy enough.

Gal 1:1 Paul an apostle- not of men, nor by man- but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope.



Need more? Pretty darn obvious, isn't it?



Quote:Re "Your argument fails, Mark. You seem to be confusing "who was called to be an apostle" with "who was sent out to evangelize."

Maybe. Prove me wrong.

Already did, two posts above.

Smile

Quote:Re "Regardless, the originator of both was Yeshua."

Prove it!

Already did, two posts above.

Quote:Re "By the way, I will give you guys a link to a very useful website that I have been using for the past 10 years which displays both the English and the Greek (with hyperlinks to the Greek definitions) of the King James version.

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebible.../index.htm
Some of you may find that website very useful."

Thanks for the link!

No problem.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2012, 02:12 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(29-11-2012 11:30 AM)Free Wrote:  This only seems to indicate that one of the earliest forms of the spelling of the word "Christian" was "Chrestian."

Since he uses the oldest codex of the Bible, and the word "Chrestian" appears to be corrected to Christian, then it is without doubt it still refers to the followers of Jesus.

I have no problem with this.
As I've said, the videos weren't meant to address the discussion you guys are having. 'Thought you may find them informative.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2012, 02:51 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(29-11-2012 11:30 AM)Free Wrote:  Since he uses the oldest codex of the Bible, and the word "Chrestian" appears to be corrected to Christian, then it is without doubt it still refers to the followers of Jesus.

I have no problem with this.
"corrected". LMAO It called "changed"/"forged".
There is a hell of a lot of doubt, no matter what is "oh-so-confidently" asserted.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2012, 03:06 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(29-11-2012 02:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-11-2012 11:30 AM)Free Wrote:  Since he uses the oldest codex of the Bible, and the word "Chrestian" appears to be corrected to Christian, then it is without doubt it still refers to the followers of Jesus.

I have no problem with this.
"corrected". LMAO It called "changed"/"forged".
There is a hell of a lot of doubt, no matter what is "oh-so-confidently" asserted.
Why does it have to mean "forged" as in the sense that that the editor had some kind of malicious intent?

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2012, 03:06 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Another interesting video by him on the whole "Chrestian" vs "Christian" issue.



[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2012, 08:11 PM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2012 08:23 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Hi Free, here we go....lol....

Re..."1. You made a positive claim that indicates that Paul knew that the same Jesus he talks about was the brother of James. A contradiction of your previous statements in this thread."



I have always said Paul knew james, Yeshua's brother. I've written 2 chapters on James in my book. Please

quote where you think I've said that james wasn't Yeshua's' brother.



Re.... "You failed to acknowledge that Paul and Peter were already evangelizing to the Gentiles and Jews before they went up to Jerusalem circa AD 49, which contradicts your view that James called them to be apostles and to evangelize."

I agree Paul and Peter were already evangelising, I never said they weren't. I don't know why you're making an issue of this. There was a meeting to discuss tactics. Paul had been preaching his own spiel for many years before this meeting. That doesn't mean he was preaching anything about Yeshua, or the teachings of the Nazarenes. Peter, on the other hand, was a Nazarene, and would have been proudly promoting messianic Judaism (just like his mates Yeshua and James)



Re...3. You failed to acknowledge that the sequence of events from Gal 2:7 - 2.10 demonstrates that both Paul and Peter were called to an apostleship before James and the others gave them their blessing to continue."

I think you might be repeating yourself here...please clarify.

Re..."4. You fail to acknowledge a consensus that the word "He" in Gal 2.8 very possibly refers to God or a deity such as Christ."

On the contrary, I accept that totally. I fail to see the point you're trying to make by mentioning it.

Re..."5. Your argument is totally destroyed by the words of Paul at the beginning of the very same letter to the Galatians in which he claims that he was called to be an apostle by Jesus Christ himself, and not by any man."

The fact that you could say this demonstrates that you have failed to understand my argument. Take a breath. Read this slowly (apologies to everyone else for me having to repeat myself)( and Free, I don't want to patronise you or suggest you're not intelligent...i am just hoping you understand me)...I think Paul's Christ wasn't Jesus, he was a spirit, a mythical son of God. This is the crux of the issue. You obviously don't understand what I'm saying. You don't have to agree with me, but try to at least understand my point.

I conceed that the fact Paul mentions the name "Jesus" weakens my argument. However...it is entirely reasonable to suggest that on the odd occasion Paul uses the name it is an interpolation.

Now, Free, you have conveniently ignored most of my arguments....

Paul never talks about Jesus, his teachings or his miracles. The one exception is the (totally fabricated) story of the last supper. You seem mightily impressed that Paul mentions the cucifixion. Sorry, I'm not. Crucified sons of god were a dime a dozen in those days. Paul's "Christ" was just another one


You haven't acknowledged that Paul fought with James and the disciples. You've ignored galatians chapter 2 and my commentary on it.

You appear to have little understanding of Yeshua's Jewishness, and the Nazarenes; how they were bitterly opposed to Rome and everything that Paul represented.

Historians have been making these points for a few centuries now, yet you don't appear to have read any of their comments. I gave you a blog to look at which adds more weight to my arguments. Did you look at it?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-11-2012, 08:34 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
I simply cannot believe you guys are still arguing about a book of bullshit myths.

I mean, seriously?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: