Who was Saint Paul?
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29-11-2012, 08:37 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(29-11-2012 12:54 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:I agree Paul was totally deluded, but have you any evidence that Paul thought Jesus called him to be an apostle? The road to Damascus story doesn't cut it, I want you to quote Paul if you can.

Sure, easy enough.

Gal 1:1 Paul an apostle- not of men, nor by man- but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope.



Need more? Pretty darn obvious, isn't it?



Quote:Re "Your argument fails, Mark. You seem to be confusing "who was called to be an apostle" with "who was sent out to evangelize."

Maybe. Prove me wrong.

Already did, two posts above.

Smile

Quote:Re "Regardless, the originator of both was Yeshua."

Prove it!

Already did, two posts above.

Quote:Re "By the way, I will give you guys a link to a very useful website that I have been using for the past 10 years which displays both the English and the Greek (with hyperlinks to the Greek definitions) of the King James version.

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebible.../index.htm
Some of you may find that website very useful."

Thanks for the link!

No problem.

Yes Free....I do need more. Two pissy little "Jesus Christ's," which could so easily have been added by dishonest people in the second century, do not convince me that Paul was referring to Yeshua. So...no...it MOST DEFINITELY IS NOT OBVIOUS that Paul was referring to Yeshua. I want Paul to tell me all about Yeshua's hopes and dreams, Yeshua's miracles, what deodorant he used, what he looked like, who he played football with, what his brother thought of him, what his mother was like, what his house was like, where he went to school, what his mates thought of him etc etc etc. We get NONE of this from paul. Zilch.


All we get is a son of god, crucified and resurrected, which are thoroughly NON JEWISH THEMES THAT WERE, AND STILL ARE, REPUGNANT TO ALL JEWS, INCLUDING YESHUA, HIS FAMILY AND HIS FRIENDS.

You've proved nothing other than that you've been easily fooled by the spin doctors who created Christianity.
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29-11-2012, 08:44 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Re "You are quite unaware that you, as an atheist, are also trapped into a belief system regarding this stuff."

What the fuck are you talking about? What "belief system?"

Um...aren't you an atheist?
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29-11-2012, 08:52 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
I've been watching about ten videos of the series and I have to say his analysis is absolutely brilliant. If you don't mind, Free, I'd like you to take a day off someday and watch his entire series. I'm interested in your opinion about his evaluation of the evidence for a historical Jesus, because he comes to a different conclusion than you.

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29-11-2012, 08:58 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(29-11-2012 08:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  I simply cannot believe you guys are still arguing about a book of bullshit myths.

I mean, seriously?


Yeah...i know... Sadcryface
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29-11-2012, 09:02 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(29-11-2012 08:52 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I've been watching about ten videos of the series and I have to say his analysis is absolutely brilliant. If you don't mind, Free, I'd like you to take a day off someday and watch his entire series. I'm interested in your opinion about his evaluation of the evidence for a historical Jesus, because he comes to a different conclusion than you.


I'll have a look at them when I get home tonight. You got me interested. Thanks for telling us about them.
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29-11-2012, 09:03 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(29-11-2012 08:58 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(29-11-2012 08:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  I simply cannot believe you guys are still arguing about a book of bullshit myths.

I mean, seriously?


Yeah...i know... Sadcryface


It's obvious Paul invented Christianity, so what the fuck is the argument?

Everything Jesus is reported as saying is about fulfilling the law and ending the world in that generation.

Everything Paul says is a rationalization of why that didn't happen.

End of fucking story.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-11-2012, 09:23 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
(29-11-2012 09:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-11-2012 08:58 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Yeah...i know... Sadcryface



It's obvious Paul invented Christianity, so what the fuck is the argument?

Everything Jesus is reported as saying is about fulfilling the law and ending the world in that generation.

Everything Paul says is a rationalization of why that didn't happen.

End of fucking story.


Yeah. Free reckons Paul was selling Jeebus juice. I'm just hoping he has a light bulb moment but I think I'm pushing shit up hill.
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29-11-2012, 10:36 PM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Quote:Re..."1. You made a positive claim that indicates that Paul knew that the same Jesus he talks about was the brother of James. A contradiction of your previous statements in this thread."

I have always said Paul knew james, Yeshua's brother. I've written 2 chapters on James in my book. Please

quote where you think I've said that james wasn't Yeshua's' brother.


Your reply here doesn't address my post, Mark. I clearly said that due to your statement of "Imagine saying that about the half brother of the son of God," you are implying that the very same Yeshua whom Paul talks about in his letters must be the very same brother of James. Let's review what you said in it's entirety.

Quote:What’s more, he barely concealed the fact he begrudged their authority:

“Not that their importance matters much to me.”

Imagine saying that about the half brother of the son of God!

What you did was quote Paul when he said, "Not that their importance matters much to me," and then stated, "Imagine saying that about the half brother of the son of God!"

You are implying that Paul's Jesus is the half-brother of James, since you are saying that Paul regards James, the half-brother of the son of God, as unimportant.

I could you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that you were being sarcastic. Other than that, there's simply no other way to see it.

Quote:Re.... "You failed to acknowledge that Paul and Peter were already evangelizing to the Gentiles and Jews before they went up to Jerusalem circa AD 49, which contradicts your view that James called them to be apostles and to evangelize."

I agree Paul and Peter were already evangelising, I never said they weren't. I don't know why you're making an issue of this. There was a meeting to discuss tactics. Paul had been preaching his own spiel for many years before this meeting. That doesn't mean he was preaching anything about Yeshua, or the teachings of the Nazarenes. Peter, on the other hand, was a Nazarene, and would have been proudly promoting messianic Judaism (just like his mates Yeshua and James)

I can accept this explanation on a different level, but it doesn't address Gal 2:8.



Quote:Re...3. You failed to acknowledge that the sequence of events from Gal 2:7 - 2.10 demonstrates that both Paul and Peter were called to an apostleship before James and the others gave them their blessing to continue."

I think you might be repeating yourself here...please clarify.

The sequence of the verses in Galatians indicates that both Paul and Peter- in Gal 2:7- 2:8- were called to be apostles before James gave Paul his blessing in Gal 2:9 to continue evangelizing the Gentiles.


Quote:Re..."4. You fail to acknowledge a consensus that the word "He" in Gal 2.8 very possibly refers to God or a deity such as Christ."

On the contrary, I accept that totally. I fail to see the point you're trying to make by mentioning it.


If you accept it "totally," then how could the "He" be in reference to James as being the one "working in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision also worked in me to the nations?"

You just nailed yourself to the proverbial cross.


Quote:Re..."5. Your argument is totally destroyed by the words of Paul at the beginning of the very same letter to the Galatians in which he claims that he was called to be an apostle by Jesus Christ himself, and not by any man."

The fact that you could say this demonstrates that you have failed to understand my argument. Take a breath. Read this slowly (apologies to everyone else for me having to repeat myself)( and Free, I don't want to patronise you or suggest you're not intelligent...i am just hoping you understand me)...I think Paul's Christ wasn't Jesus, he was a spirit, a mythical son of God. This is the crux of the issue. You obviously don't understand what I'm saying. You don't have to agree with me, but try to at least understand my point.

Yes Free....I do need more. Two pissy little "Jesus Christ's," which could so easily have been added by dishonest people in the second century, do not convince me that Paul was referring to Yeshua. So...no...it MOST DEFINITELY IS NOT OBVIOUS that Paul was referring to Yeshua. I want Paul to tell me all about Yeshua's hopes and dreams, Yeshua's miracles, what deodorant he used, what he looked like, who he played football with, what his brother thought of him, what his mother was like, what his house was like, where he went to school, what his mates thought of him etc etc etc. We get NONE of this from paul. Zilch.


All we get is a son of god, crucified and resurrected, which are thoroughly NON JEWISH THEMES THAT WERE, AND STILL ARE, REPUGNANT TO ALL JEWS, INCLUDING YESHUA, HIS FAMILY AND HIS FRIENDS.

You've proved nothing other than that you've been easily fooled by the spin doctors who created Christianity.

Why is it that each time textual evidence is supplied that contradicts your view you must play the interpolation card, Mark?

Don't you understand that you are only arguing with what you "think" and not with what you can demonstrate to be true, or even come close to being true?

Now listen to me ...

We are not as far apart on Paul as you think. I actually agree with about 95% of what you are saying. The only difference is that you think Paul's Jesus was not the historical Yeshua at all, and I believe that Paul's concept of Yeshua was indeed modeled after the historical Yeshua.

The basis of Paul's Yeshua is the crucified dude who got his ass kicked by Pontius Pilate, and the same dude who was the brother of James. That is why there are so many similarities.

Now understand this from my point of view:

1. Paul never met Jesus, he was a fucking liar.

2. Paul heard a few things about Jesus from the other disciples, and then added his own spin on it.

3. Paul took a guilt trip for persecuting his fellow Jews who worshiped Yeshua, and it was this guilt trip that was responsible for his conversion, and not some fucked up vision on some road to Damascus.

4. Paul was a vain and arrogant man who was accustomed to being in a position of authority with the Jews because they sanctioned him to persecute the early followers of Yeshua. He hated not being one of Yeshua's hand-picked apostles, so he made up this bullshit story that he met Yeshua (1Co_9:1, 1Co_15:8) , and that it was Yeshua himself who called him to be an apostle, and that's why you see it in Gal 1:1.

5. Paul was indeed at odds with the Nazarene Church because of his big fucking ego and sense of self importance. They never called him an apostle, and doubted his claim about meeting Yeshua. In fact, I conclude that they took every liberty to ostracize him by basically saying, "Hey Paul buddy ... listen dude .. ummm ... we got the Jews handled here, so like ... why don't you just go fuck off into Greece somewhere and tell the Gentiles whatever the fuck it is you're talking about, cuz we don't wanna hear it, okay?"

6. From that point, Paul used the little he knew about Jesus and built the biggest fucking lie around an actual historical person. He made shit up in his head, and spread his crap to the already god-crazy Greeks who ate it up like a love drug. He competed with the Jerusalem Church and the early Gnostics for followers, and he was hell-bent and determined to prove himself as being somebody great, at all costs.


So how am I doing, Mark? Am I in the ballpark? Everything I said has already been demonstrated as having textual evidence for support. I don't need to make any unsupported claims about interpolations because that road is a dead end.

What I am saying makes perfect sense because it is fully supported by the texts.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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30-11-2012, 01:10 AM
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Hi Free,

at last some common ground!

Somehow you've misunderstood me, perhaps because I didn't word what I wrote very well.

Re Yeshua/ James/ Paul......we agree James was Yeshua's brother, and Paul must have known that, right? Now, if Paul thought Yeshua was the Christ, he would hardly refer to Christ's brother as a "so called pillar of the church" and wouldn't say "not that their importance matters to me" when referring to James, Peter and John. Surely he would be in awe of the brother of the son of god! He's not, because Paul's Christ wasn't Yeshua! This was the point I was trying to make.
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30-11-2012, 01:35 AM (This post was last modified: 30-11-2012 01:39 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Who was Saint Paul?
Ok, here is what Paul wrote, King James Bible....


“It was not until fourteen years had passed that
I went up to Jerusalem again. I went with Barnabas and took Titus with me. I
went there as a result of a revelation, and privately I laid before the leading
men the Good News as I proclaim it among the pagans; I did so for fear the
course I was adopting or had already adopted would not be allowed. And what
happened? Even though Titus who had come with me is a Greek, he was not obliged
to be circumcised. The question came up only because some who do not really
belong to the brotherhood have furtively crept in to spy on the liberty we
enjoy in Jesus Christ, and want to reduce us all to slavery. I was so
determined to safeguard for you the true meaning of the Good News, that I
refused even out of deference to yield to such people for one moment. As a
result, these people who are acknowledged leaders—not that their importance
matters much to me, since God has no favorites—these leaders, as I say, had
nothing to add to the Good News as I preach it. On the contrary, they
recognized I had been commissioned to preach the Good News to the uncircumcised
just as Peter had been commissioned to preach it to the circumcised. The same
person whose action had made Peter the apostle of the circumcised had given me
a similar mission to the pagans. So James, Cephas and John, these leaders, these
pillars, shook hands with Barnabas and me as a sign of partnership: we were to
go to the pagans and they to the circumcised. The only thing they insisted on
was that we should remember to help the poor, as indeed I was anxious to do.
When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, since he was
manifestly in the wrong. His custom had been to eat with the pagans, but after
certain friends of James arrived he stopped doing this and kept away from them
altogether for fear of the group that insisted on circumcision. The other Jews
joined him in this pretence, and even Barnabas felt himself obliged to copy
their behavior. When I saw they were not respecting the true meaning of the
Good News, I said to Cephas in front of everyone, ‘In spite of being a Jew, you
live like the pagans and not like the Jews, so you have no right to make the
pagans copy Jewish ways.’” (Gal. 2:1–15 JB).

Let's consider...

"On the contrary, they recognized I had been commissioned to preach the Good News to the uncircumcised just as Peter had been commissioned to preach it to the circumcised. The same person whose action had made Peter the apostle of the circumcised had given me a similar mission to the pagans"


Now, if I understand you correctly, you are claiming that "the same person" is Jeebus. You are saying Paul thinks Jeebus sent him to the pagans (the uncircumcised) and Peter to the Jews (the circumcised). Now....I think it is clear Paul is referring to James. Paul doesn't name him because he doesn't want to acknowledge his authority. James is in charge of the Nazarenes (including Paul). The exact same scenario is clearly explained in Acts. James sends Peter to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles. Your theory that Paul is referring to Jeebus makes very little sense because Jeebus was dead. What is more, Paul never claimed he talked to Christ. He had revelations ABOUT CHRIST (from God) but not FROM CHRIST.
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