Who wrote the gospels?
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07-08-2015, 02:12 PM
Who wrote the gospels?
I'm in a debate where I anticipate that I will soon have to make the claim that the gospels were not written by the disciples Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. That, in fact, early copies of the gospels do not have an author credit. Am I correct and, if so, how can I back that up?

Sapere aude
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07-08-2015, 02:17 PM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(07-08-2015 02:12 PM)f stop Wrote:  I'm in a debate where I anticipate that I will soon have to make the claim that the gospels were not written by the disciples Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. That, in fact, early copies of the gospels do not have an author credit. Am I correct and, if so, how can I back that up?

Writings of the Gospels: Mark (60 to 75 CE), Matthew (80 to 90 CE), Luke (80 to 90 CE based on the Gospels of Mark), and John (80 to 110 CE) (Albl 283). I have shown before in various venues the issues with the Gospels, the fact that we don’t know who wrote the gospels, the community effort that put them together, and the fact that they don’t agree with one another, all of which make them a suspect source of empirical evidence. When one posits a super natural, extraordinary story, one requires extraordinary evidence....sadly it doesn't exist, except philosophically.

The Gospel of Matthew is generally believed to have been composed between 70 and 110, with most scholars preferring the period 80–90; a pre-70 date remains a minority view. The anonymous author was probably a highly educated Jew, intimately familiar with the technical aspects of Jewish law, and the disciple Matthew was probably honored within his circle. The author drew on three main sources to compose his gospel: the Gospel of Mark; the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source; and material unique to his own community, called "Special Matthew", or the M source. Note the part where I said...disciple matthew honored...and anonymous writer.

I find it interesting that the writer of matthew refers to "matthew" in the third person. Matthew claims jesus was born in "the days of herod the king." Yet Herod died in 4 BCE. Luke reports that jesus was born "when Cyrenius (Quirinius) was governor of Syria." Cyrenius became governor of Syria in 6 CE...that is a discrepancy of 9 years. Luke says Jesus was born during a roman census, and it is true there was a census in 6 CE. This would have been when jesus was 9 years old according to matthew. There is no evidence of an earlier census during the reign of Augustine. Which is true?

Matthew also reports that Herod slaughtered all first born in the land in order to execute jesus. No historian, contemporary or later, ever mentions this alleged genocide, an event that should have caught someones attention....like the many miraculous stories of jesus, no one at the time thought they were cool enough to record...odd don't you think?

The gospel of Mark; Most modern scholars reject the tradition which ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist, the companion of Peter, and regard it as the work of an unknown author working with various sources including collections of miracle stories, controversy stories, parables, and a passion narrative. Mark is the oldest of the synoptic gospels, of which the authors of matthew, and luke based their stories. All scholars agree that the last 12 verses of Mark, are highly dubious and are considered interpolations. The earliest ancient documents of mark end right after the women find the empty tomb. This means that in the first biography, on which the others based their reports, there is no post-resurrection appearance or ascension of jesus.

Luke: Tradition holds that the text was written by Luke the companion of Paul (named in Colossians 4:14). Many modern scholars reject this view, although the list of scholars maintaining authorship by Luke the physician is lengthy, and represents scholars from a wide range of theological opinion. According to Raymond E. Brown, opinion concerning Lukan authorship was ‘about evenly divided’ as of 1997.

John: The gospel identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." Although the text does not name this disciple, by the beginning of the 2nd century, a tradition had begun to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus' innermost circle). Although some notable New Testament scholars affirm traditional Johannine scholarship, the majority do not believe that John or one of the Apostles wrote it, and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John.



Various works cited or used:

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674873

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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07-08-2015, 02:19 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2015 02:34 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
Damn it, I so wanted to be first Wink

There is thread about this, though I'm not sure if what Goodwithoutgod posted isn't better.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...f-the-Wild

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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07-08-2015, 02:43 PM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
Yes. You are correct. The gospels are anonymous horseshit.

Quote:A very large percentage of seminarians are completely blind-sided
by the historical-critical method. They come in with the expectation
of learning the pious truths of the Bible so that they can pass
them along in their sermons, as their own pastors have done for
them. Nothing prepares them for historical criticism. To their surprise
they learn, instead of material for sermons, all the results of
what historical critics have established on the basis of centuries of
research. The Bible is filled with discrepancies, many of them irreconcilable
contradictions. Moses did not write the Pentateuch (the
first five books of the Old Testament) and Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and John did not write the Gospels.
There are other books that did
not make it into the Bible that at one time or another were considered
canonical—other Gospels, for example, allegedly written by
Jesus’ followers Peter, Thomas, and Mary. The Exodus probably did
not happen as described in the Old Testament.


Bart Ehrman Jesus Interrupted Pg 5

Feel free to use this.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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07-08-2015, 03:14 PM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
I was gonna say Dan Brown, but that was The DaVinci Code.
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09-08-2015, 04:40 PM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
goodwithoutgod has the superior knowledge Smile I feel honored though that my debate link ended up in another thread Blush

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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10-08-2015, 03:45 AM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(07-08-2015 02:17 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Writings of the Gospels: Mark (60 to 75 CE), Matthew (80 to 90 CE), Luke (80 to 90 CE based on the Gospels of Mark), and John (80 to 110 CE).
I can't help but wonder how these dates were determined.

In a You Tube video D. M. Murdock (Acharya S) says that no one cited the gospels until late in the second century. That suggests that the gospels did not even exist until the late second century.

Sapere aude
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10-08-2015, 03:56 AM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
I recommend The Case For Christ, chapter 2. The guy that Lee Strobel is interviewing as I recall says the same thing and he is a christian.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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10-08-2015, 03:59 AM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(10-08-2015 03:45 AM)f stop Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 02:17 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Writings of the Gospels: Mark (60 to 75 CE), Matthew (80 to 90 CE), Luke (80 to 90 CE based on the Gospels of Mark), and John (80 to 110 CE).
I can't help but wonder how these dates were determined.

In a You Tube video D. M. Murdock (Acharya S) says that no one cited the gospels until late in the second century. That suggests that the gospels did not even exist until the late second century.

Fragments I believe. Also early Christian authors don't mention the gospels or even Jesus until about 70CE. It has been years since I read the early Christians and I would not waste time with them now. I read them to understand contemporary ancient Rome.
GWG is more up on the subject than I am today.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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10-08-2015, 04:11 AM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
Why the holy colander do you want to assume the burden of proof in an argument with a theist? That seems silly to me.

It is their job to provide evidence that the gospels are true or why be bothered to believe them? You don't have to prove them to be false.
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