Who wrote the gospels?
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11-08-2015, 09:43 AM (This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 12:41 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(11-08-2015 07:53 AM)Free Wrote:  One of the big problems with that is that within the Gospels we see that the 2nd Temple is still standing, with no mention of its destruction. The temple was destroyed in AD 70.

No we see no such thing. They were written TO APPEAR that the temple was still standing.

Paul refers to "my gospel" and goes to the trouble to claim that it was the one "recieved". He lied about many things so we have no reason to believe him.

Quote:"1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;
1Co 11:24 And giving thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body, which is broken for you; this do in remembrance of Me."
1Co 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also, after supping, saying, "This cup is the New Covenant in My blood; as often as you drink it, do this in remembrance of Me."

Jesus was (if he existed) a Kosher-keeping JEW. Eating and drinking blood were abominations to Jews. There is not a chance in hell he ever said anything even remotely like these things.

These things (absent in John) reflect a POST execution mentality. There is no way Jesus ever said any of these things, and a close examination reveals they make no sense in context, and reflect a much later developed theological developed mentality.

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11-08-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(11-08-2015 09:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 08:44 AM)Free Wrote:  Meh, we are not going to have this conversation for the umpteenth time on this forum, for all I need to do is say one thing:

Do you have any actual evidence to support any of your claims above?

No?

Okay, we are done here.

Moving along ...

Big Grin

No, and obviously neither do you. You position has nothing to support it any more than mine. I am a skeptic.

Well, Clement is evidence. It doesn't matter in the slightest if you don't think it is. Because it has an existence, it is evidence regardless of what you think of it.

So yes, I have evidence.

But what do you have? You have nothing more than assertions against that evidence. Unsupported assertions. That's all you got.

So why argue with you about it when you have nothing to support your arguments?

You can be a skeptic all you want, but balancing rationality with it is really what makes for a great skeptic.

I don't give a fuck if Jesus existed or not, but I won't bend the rules of reason just because I don't like the fucker.

Meh, it is what it is.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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11-08-2015, 10:02 AM (This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 10:18 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(11-08-2015 09:44 AM)Free Wrote:  Well, Clement is evidence. It doesn't matter in the slightest if you don't think it is. Because it has an existence, it is evidence regardless of what you think of it.

So yes, I have evidence.

You have no evidence. All you have is a quote that appears in two places. You have no clue where it came from, when it first appeared, or who authored it.
You have no "evidence".

Claiming something is evidence does not make it evidence.

I have the prevailing atmosphere of all the lies and deception ADMITTED by these "church fathers" that supports my skepticism, that's my "evidence".
Clement was one of these admitted liars. "Not all true things are the truth, nor should that truth which merely seems true according to human opinions be preferred to the true truth, that according to the faith."
Clement
(quoted by M. Smith, Clement of Alexandria, p. 446)


You, good sir, (with the mouse in your house Weeping ) ( Tongue )
gots nothing but mouse turds.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rly-church

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11-08-2015, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 10:30 AM by Free.)
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(11-08-2015 10:02 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 09:44 AM)Free Wrote:  Well, Clement is evidence. It doesn't matter in the slightest if you don't think it is. Because it has an existence, it is evidence regardless of what you think of it.

So yes, I have evidence.

You have no evidence. All you have is a quote that appears in two places. You have no clue where it came from, when it first appeared, or who authored it.
You have no "evidence".

Claiming something is evidence does not make it evidence.

I have the prevailing atmosphere of all the lies and deception ADMITTED by these "church fathers" that supports my skepticism, that's my "evidence".

You, good sir, (with the mouse in your house Weeping ) ( Tongue )
gots nothing but mouse turds.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rly-church

Hey, whatever you think dude, just hold on to those beliefs. Just hold on to your mythicist interpretation of history. Maybe ... just maybe ... the day will come when that position might actually provide a single stitch of evidence to support one single argument that position thinks it currently has.

But at this time, that position is still laughed at by any serious unbiased scholar, and anyone else who employs sound reasoning.

You see, with you following that biased anti-Christian narcissist Carrier, it is no different then a theist who subscribes to a biased Christian scholar. You are making the exact same mistake any theist makes.

And me? I don't have loyalty to anybody in the field. Sure, I respect a few, but also I can disagree with that same few on many things.

So, to each his own. Enjoy the Jesus Mythicist Camp that Jesus-Carrier-Christ sucks you into.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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11-08-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(10-08-2015 03:45 AM)f stop Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 02:17 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Writings of the Gospels: Mark (60 to 75 CE), Matthew (80 to 90 CE), Luke (80 to 90 CE based on the Gospels of Mark), and John (80 to 110 CE).
I can't help but wonder how these dates were determined.

In a You Tube video D. M. Murdock (Acharya S) says that no one cited the gospels until late in the second century. That suggests that the gospels did not even exist until the late second century.

Backwards dating, really. No one aside from fundie nuts thinks that "jesus" made an actual prediction that Jerusalem would be leveled. So scholars try to shoehorn the earliest possible date around 70 when Titus sacked the city and burned the temple. This so-called "Little Apocalypse" is thus assumed to be the earliest date that 'mark' or whoever would have written and then they arbitrarily tack on years for the other 3 which were derived from 'mark.'

There are three obvious problems with this.

1. From 70-130 Jerusalem sat there as a burned out ruin occupied only by the 10th Legion which moved its permanent base there from Syria. They cleared off what they needed to clear off and built themselves a typically Roman legionary camp. There are scads of bricks stamped "Legio X" all over the place. 'mark' could have been written at any time during that 60 year period and, no one in the first century seems to have heard of any 'jesus' in the Greco Roman literature of the time. Lucian of Samosata mentions the xtians following a crucified man c 160 but he never mentions anyone named 'jesus.' Celsus, c 180, finally mentions 'jesus' but makes it clear that he is commenting on xtian tales....which he finds absurd.

2. Around 130 Hadrian, who had initially allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem, decided to level the ruined old city and build a new one, called Aelia Capitolina, on top of it. Construction began c 132 which kicked off the bar Kochba revolt. However, it could be said that around this time the stories of the Little Apocalypse did come true.

Quote:13 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

mark 13: 5

Mark does not have jesus say "the temple will be a burned out shell" which would have been the case between 70 - 130. He has him say that all the buildings would have been leveled which did happen sometime after 132. Now, I ask you, what is more likely? That mark "foresaw" what Hadrian would do in the future or that he wrote after the Roman urban renewal project had gotten underway. I'll leave that one to you.

3. In spite of all the damage she has done to the mythicist cause with her conspiracy bullshit, Acharya is right. The first to name the gospels is Irenaeus, c 185 AD. Justin, writing to Emperor Antoninus Pius c 160, has never heard of any of these books. For that matter, he never mentions anyone named 'paul' which is even more astounding.

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11-08-2015, 12:34 PM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(11-08-2015 11:29 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  3. In spite of all the damage she has done to the mythicist cause with her conspiracy bullshit, Acharya is right. The first to name the gospels is Irenaeus, c 185 AD. Justin, writing to Emperor Antoninus Pius c 160, has never heard of any of these books. For that matter, he never mentions anyone named 'paul' which is even more astounding.

I could easily dispute everything you said, but i will pick out the above to demonstrate how mythicists so very much like to cherry pick to establish a point.

You mentioned that Justin Martyr had never heard of any of the books known as the Gospels. Oh but ... how easy that is to dispute is just ridiculous.

Here:

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR -DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO

"This is what we are amazed at," said Trypho, "but those things about which the multitude speak are not worthy of belief; for they are most repugnant to human nature. Moreover, I am aware that your precepts in the so-called Gospel are so wonderful and so great, that I suspect no one can keep them; for I have carefully read them."


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...rypho.html

In the one above Trypho not only says the Gospels were in existence, but also they were in existence in written form.

And now for the icing on the cake ...

Justin Martyr - CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...ology.html

Absolutely baffled at how far you mythicists will go to deny the truth about this issue to people who are simply curious.

Give them the truth, for fucks sakes. It won't kill you I promise.

Drinking Beverage

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11-08-2015, 12:45 PM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(11-08-2015 12:34 PM)Free Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 11:29 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  3. In spite of all the damage she has done to the mythicist cause with her conspiracy bullshit, Acharya is right. The first to name the gospels is Irenaeus, c 185 AD. Justin, writing to Emperor Antoninus Pius c 160, has never heard of any of these books. For that matter, he never mentions anyone named 'paul' which is even more astounding.

I could easily dispute everything you said, but i will pick out the above to demonstrate how mythicists so very much like to cherry pick to establish a point.

You mentioned that Justin Martyr had never heard of any of the books known as the Gospels. Oh but ... how easy that is to dispute is just ridiculous.

Here:

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR -DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO

"This is what we are amazed at," said Trypho, "but those things about which the multitude speak are not worthy of belief; for they are most repugnant to human nature. Moreover, I am aware that your precepts in the so-called Gospel are so wonderful and so great, that I suspect no one can keep them; for I have carefully read them."


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...rypho.html

In the one above Trypho not only says the Gospels were in existence, but also they were in existence in written form.

And now for the icing on the cake ...

Justin Martyr - CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...ology.html

Absolutely baffled at how far you mythicists will go to deny the truth about this issue to people who are simply curious.

Give them the truth, for fucks sakes. It won't kill you I promise.

Drinking Beverage

Trypho (concensus) was a fabrication of Justin to have a diologue with.
No wonder you think you have "evidence". Weeping

Wiki :
Identity of Trypho :
The identity of Trypho, as rabbi Tarfon (the Hebrew name Tarfon likely derived from Greek Trypho) has been proposed, but virtually all scholars mentioned in Setzer's 'Jewish Responses to Early Christians' do not accept the notion that Trypho is Tarfon.[2] These scholars say that Trypho is a fictional character invented by Justin for his literary goals.[2][3] Setzer's book further claims that, whether a character on which Trypho was based existed or not, one can generally assume that Trypho's words are "largely put in his mouth by Justin".[4]

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11-08-2015, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 01:19 PM by Free.)
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(11-08-2015 12:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 12:34 PM)Free Wrote:  I could easily dispute everything you said, but i will pick out the above to demonstrate how mythicists so very much like to cherry pick to establish a point.

You mentioned that Justin Martyr had never heard of any of the books known as the Gospels. Oh but ... how easy that is to dispute is just ridiculous.

Here:

ST. JUSTIN MARTYR -DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO

"This is what we are amazed at," said Trypho, "but those things about which the multitude speak are not worthy of belief; for they are most repugnant to human nature. Moreover, I am aware that your precepts in the so-called Gospel are so wonderful and so great, that I suspect no one can keep them; for I have carefully read them."


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...rypho.html

In the one above Trypho not only says the Gospels were in existence, but also they were in existence in written form.

And now for the icing on the cake ...

Justin Martyr - CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...ology.html

Absolutely baffled at how far you mythicists will go to deny the truth about this issue to people who are simply curious.

Give them the truth, for fucks sakes. It won't kill you I promise.

Drinking Beverage

Trypho (concensus) was a fabrication of Justin to have a diologue with.
No wonder you think you have "evidence". Weeping

And yet this argument of yours completely ignores the fact that even if Justin was creating some kind of play, the context itself still states that the Gospels were in written form.

I just can't let you ignore that fact, Bucky Boy. Nope, ya gotta eat it.

Big Grin

Aside from that, the opinion that Justin wasn't actually having a dialogue with Trypho is just that and only that; an opinion.

There is no evidence to support that opinion.

I also noticed that you can't do anything about the 2nd one I posted that says, "For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels,"

I'm dying to see the mythicist argument against that one. Make it good, I need cheap entertainment.

Big Grin

PS: I know I know ... I'm an arrogant bastard. But someone needs to keep you JMers on your toes, and by invoking an attitude towards your position, then maybe you just might find a viable argument. After all, I am the one you hate to love, and love to hate.

Smile

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11-08-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(11-08-2015 12:53 PM)Free Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 12:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Trypho (concensus) was a fabrication of Justin to have a diologue with.
No wonder you think you have "evidence". Weeping

And yet this argument of yours completely ignores the fact that even if Justin was creating some kind of play, the context itself still states that the Gospels were in written form.

I just can't let you ignore that fact, Bucky Boy. Nope, ya gotta eat it.

Big Grin

Aside from that, the opinion that Justin wasn't actually having a dialogue with Trypho is just that and only that; an opinion.

There is no evidence to support that opinion.

I also noticed that you can't do anything about the 2nd one I posted that says, "For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels,"

I'm dying to see the mythicist argument against that one. Make it good, I need cheap entertainment.

Big Grin

PS: I know I know ... I'm an arrogant bastard. But someone needs to keep you JMers on your toes, and by invoking an attitude towards your position, then maybe you just might find a viable argument. After all, I am the one you hate to love, and love to hate.

Smile

He had no idea who composed them, or where they came from, and he didn't say he receved anything in written form. If he "received" them, the statement is a faith claim. We know the apostles didn't write gospels. The "gospel" is the "good news", not (necessarily) a written scroll. When Paul says the gospel he gave was the gospel he recieved", it was not a written one.

You're not "keeping anyone on their toes". It's al very simple to refute faith claims, such as you make. Tongue

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11-08-2015, 01:47 PM
RE: Who wrote the gospels?
(11-08-2015 01:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 12:53 PM)Free Wrote:  And yet this argument of yours completely ignores the fact that even if Justin was creating some kind of play, the context itself still states that the Gospels were in written form.

I just can't let you ignore that fact, Bucky Boy. Nope, ya gotta eat it.

Big Grin

Aside from that, the opinion that Justin wasn't actually having a dialogue with Trypho is just that and only that; an opinion.

There is no evidence to support that opinion.

I also noticed that you can't do anything about the 2nd one I posted that says, "For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels,"

I'm dying to see the mythicist argument against that one. Make it good, I need cheap entertainment.

Big Grin

PS: I know I know ... I'm an arrogant bastard. But someone needs to keep you JMers on your toes, and by invoking an attitude towards your position, then maybe you just might find a viable argument. After all, I am the one you hate to love, and love to hate.

Smile

He had no idea who composed them, or where they came from, and he didn't say he receved anything in written form. If he "received" them, the statement is a faith claim. We know the apostles didn't write gospels. The "gospel" is the "good news", not (necessarily) a written scroll. When Paul says the gospel he gave was the gospel he recieved", it was not a written one.

You're not "keeping anyone on their toes". It's al very simple to refute faith claims, such as you make. Tongue

Okay so now we watch how the goal posts are moved from the point of "no one cited anything from the Gospels, " to "no one mentioned a written Gospel," and now we move them again to "no one stated who wrote them." Laughat

Don't you see how you make the exact same logically fallacious errors as the theists do? If this is what Jesus does to you, might I suggest you live your life away from this topic?

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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