Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
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03-02-2012, 07:53 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
Suppose you don't put the blameworthy groups in any order of guilt, but list them - say, alphabetically?

Aristocracy
Citizenry
Clergy
Engineers
Industry
Intelligentsia
Media
Megarich
Military
Scientists
Teachers
Women

And then, devise a code of ethics for each group that would prevent them making the same hash of things in the future as they have in the past.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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03-02-2012, 07:58 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(03-02-2012 07:53 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  And then, devise a code of ethics for each group that would prevent them making the same hash of things in the future as they have in the past.

Excellent suggestion, Peterkin.

Maybe a new thread, called "Code of Ethics for Influencers" could be started on it?

I will think about it, but will welcome anyone beating me to it! Big Grin
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03-02-2012, 08:09 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(03-02-2012 07:53 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  Suppose you don't put the blameworthy groups in any order of guilt, but list them - say, alphabetically?

Aristocracy
Citizenry
Clergy
Engineers
Industry
Intelligentsia
Media
Megarich
Military
Scientists
Teachers
Women

And then, devise a code of ethics for each group that would prevent them making the same hash of things in the future as they have in the past.

This sounds great in theory but who would implement this code of ethics and more importantly who would enforce it? Hmmm...

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03-02-2012, 08:18 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(03-02-2012 08:09 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  This sounds great in theory but who would implement this code of ethics and more importantly who would enforce it? Hmmm...

Oh, this is just a mental exercise, aurora, to document, for ourselves, how the different groups of 'influencers' should behave -- with all the dos and don'ts we can think of.

I'll see if I can come up with code of ethics for scientists, engineers and maybe teachers. My area of experience.
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03-02-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(03-02-2012 08:18 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:09 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  This sounds great in theory but who would implement this code of ethics and more importantly who would enforce it? Hmmm...

Oh, this is just a mental exercise, aurora, to document, for ourselves, how the different groups of 'influencers' should behave -- with all the dos and don'ts we can think of.

I'll see if I can come up with code of ethics for scientists, engineers and maybe teachers. My area of experience.

Excellent, I'll look forward to reading it. Smile
I know it's just a mental exercise but have you an answer/idea/theory on how it could be enforced and by whom?

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03-02-2012, 09:50 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
All kinds of professions have a guild of some kind, which sets standards, curricula and examinations, to which one must earn entry and to which members pay dues and contribute learned articles. Doctors and lawyers have to take an oath to uphold the rules; government members are sworn into office. Citizens have a constitution and bill of rights. The UN has a declaration of human rights. Each of the existing organizations can begin with the documents or set of rules they already have, and expand it to global requirements.

Nobody can enforce the code of ethic; we each have to behave decently for ourselves.
But it would help if we could behave decently in accord with the general understanding of rightness, not against and in spite of our governments and one another.

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05-02-2012, 05:06 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  It was these scientists who provided the tool to end the Second World War with less loss of life than without that tool.

The assertion that dropping the atomic bomb ended the war with less loss of life than there would have been otherwise remains to be seen. It's something we'll never know.

What we do know, however, is that by dropping those two atomic bombs we killed over 200,000 innocent men, women, and children - many of whom were probably opposed to any war at all. I firmly believe that it is completely impermissible to violate the rights of innocent people. Imagine what would happen to the people of his country if the world decided to hold U.S. citizens responsible for the overseas murder and misdeeds of our government in the same manner we held the innocent people of Japan responsible.

Murray Rothbard states this position extremely well in his essay titled 'War, Peace, and the State': "These weapons are ipso facto engines of indiscriminate mass destruction. (The only exception would be the extremely rare case where a mass of people who were all criminals inhabited a vast geographical area.) We must, therefore, conclude that the use of nuclear or similar weapons, or the threat thereof, is a sin and a crime against humanity for which there can be no justification."

If you'd be interested in reading the full essay (which I would highly recommend), you can do so here: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard26.html

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05-02-2012, 05:29 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(05-02-2012 05:06 PM)impr0vise Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 03:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  It was these scientists who provided the tool to end the Second World War with less loss of life than without that tool.

The assertion that dropping the atomic bomb ended the war with less loss of life than there would have been otherwise remains to be seen. It's something we'll never know.

What we do know, however, is that by dropping those two atomic bombs we killed over 200,000 innocent men, women, and children - many of whom were probably opposed to any war at all. I firmly believe that it is completely impermissible to violate the rights of innocent people. Imagine what would happen to the people of his country if the world decided to hold U.S. citizens responsible for the overseas murder and misdeeds of our government in the same manner we held the innocent people of Japan responsible.

Murray Rothbard states this position extremely well in his essay titled 'War, Peace, and the State': "These weapons are ipso facto engines of indiscriminate mass destruction. (The only exception would be the extremely rare case where a mass of people who were all criminals inhabited a vast geographical area.) We must, therefore, conclude that the use of nuclear or similar weapons, or the threat thereof, is a sin and a crime against humanity for which there can be no justification."

If you'd be interested in reading the full essay (which I would highly recommend), you can do so here: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard26.html

I have read many analyses of the use of the atomic bombs on Japan. I see the weight of evidence is that at least 500,000 people would have died in a protracted war and invasion of Japan, including many civilians. In the battle for Okinawa, as many as 140,000 civilians died. Also compare this to the more than 7,000,000 Chinese civilian deaths, more than 3,000,000 in the Dutch East Indies, another 1,000,000 in Indochina at the hands of the Japanese.

However, it seems little known that the deadliest single air raid of WWII was on Tokyo on March 9/10, 1945; deadlier than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Atomic and nuclear weapons are not the only weapons of mass destruction.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-02-2012, 06:56 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(03-02-2012 08:24 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  I know it's just a mental exercise but have you an answer/idea/theory on how it could be enforced and by whom?

That is a tricky question, aurora.

Since everything is connected, you can't have an isolated solution to one problem humanity is facing. It will have to be a comprehensive answer where the basic assumptions of social organization are redefined to create a society that is sustainable, both within itself and with its environment.

I tried to suggest a compromise that might work (at least for a while ) in the "Proposal for a New Social Contract" thread, but I have no road map as to how to make the transition from here to there.

My suspicion is that society will have to sustain a major shock in the coming challenges of climate change, energy crisis, financial collapse, etc. so it would consider a drastic change in order to recover and start again, with a clean slate, without the built in self-destructiveness that we have now.

Sorry for the pessimistic appraiser, but this is what I honestly and seriously believe.

Smile
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05-02-2012, 11:05 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(05-02-2012 06:56 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(03-02-2012 08:24 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  I know it's just a mental exercise but have you an answer/idea/theory on how it could be enforced and by whom?

That is a tricky question, aurora.

Since everything is connected, you can't have an isolated solution to one problem humanity is facing. It will have to be a comprehensive answer where the basic assumptions of social organization are redefined to create a society that is sustainable, both within itself and with its environment.

I tried to suggest a compromise that might work (at least for a while ) in the "Proposal for a New Social Contract" thread, but I have no road map as to how to make the transition from here to there.

My suspicion is that society will have to sustain a major shock in the coming challenges of climate change, energy crisis, financial collapse, etc. so it would consider a drastic change in order to recover and start again, with a clean slate, without the built in self-destructiveness that we have now.

Sorry for the pessimistic appraiser, but this is what I honestly and seriously believe.

Smile

I have now read your 'Proposal for a New Social Contract'. A very thought provoking piece, I have to say. It certainly does sound good in theory and, yes, I agree that it would probably take catastrophic events for this to be even considered by the 'powers that be' let alone put into effect.
I would like to think that the human race will eventually realise it has taken an incorrect deviation (war, famine, huge consumerism etc...) from where it really should be but realistically I am pessimistic as I don't think it will change until it's too late with many, many lives being lost and most of earth's resources having been depleted.
It is a very sad and frustrating situation.

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