Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
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06-02-2012, 12:09 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
In response to the OP's comment about scientists starting this mess, nuclear weapons wouldn't have been built in the Nazi era had it not been for 2000 years of Christianity looking at one gospel of St. John. Another prime example of why religion is to fault for the world's problems.
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06-02-2012, 09:11 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(05-02-2012 11:05 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  I have now read your 'Proposal for a New Social Contract'. A very thought provoking piece, I have to say. It certainly does sound good in theory and, yes, I agree that it would probably take catastrophic events for this to be even considered by the 'powers that be' let alone put into effect.

That is part of the tragedy of the human species, aurora.

Greed can not tolerate compromise.

Even if it has accumulated more than it could probably use in 100 lifetimes, it still wants more.

Nothing is enough! Rolleyes
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07-02-2012, 12:07 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
I don't see anything in all of the posts here (and sorry if I missed it, but it's up to 11 pages now) but why do you assume that there's a "mess we are in"?

I have the freedom to go online at my leisure and write my opinion on religious matters. I'm not cold or starving right now, and I don't fear for my life. Not everyone in the world can claim any of this - in fact, the majority of the world's population would have difficulty with one part of that or another. It just strikes me as awfully cynical to look at life in the US and call it a "mess".

It may be a mess compared to a hypothetical utopian state that you guys have in your head, but count your blessings --- life really isn't that awful. But if you do see it as a "mess", what is the criteria that you judge it by? What would a non-mess look like, and would it be equally happy (opposite of "mess"?) for everyone?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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07-02-2012, 12:19 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(03-02-2012 07:53 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  Suppose you don't put the blameworthy groups in any order of guilt, but list them - say, alphabetically?

Aristocracy
Citizenry
Clergy
Engineers
Industry
Intelligentsia
Media
Megarich
Military
Scientists
Teachers
Women

And then, devise a code of ethics for each group that would prevent them making the same hash of things in the future as they have in the past.

Peterkin,
I'm curious - explain why you stated women...

Humankind Dodgy (a total misnomer)
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07-02-2012, 07:01 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2012 07:35 AM by Zat.)
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(07-02-2012 12:07 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  I don't see anything in all of the posts here (and sorry if I missed it, but it's up to 11 pages now) but why do you assume that there's a "mess we are in"?

Startcrash, I wasn't talking about our comfortable middle-class western lives -- I was talking about the entire human species, all 7 billion of us, living on this beat-up old planet.

For those who arrived late to this thread, here is a summary from Page #7:

The mess I was talking about:

Mess
1. Wars, all over the planet
2. Danger of nuclear, chemical, biological, space-based weapons (deployment or accident)
3. Environmental degradation
4. Massive levels of species extinction
5. Depletion and pollution of natural resources
6. Massive and unspeakable cruelty to animals on farms and in laboratories
7. Mass starvation on the planet
8. Epidemics and Pandemics at ever increasing rate
9. Climate change runaway threat and ongoing negative effects
10. Massive poverty, ostentatious gluttony, increasing desperation and crime
11. Fundamentalist Religion’s resurgence
12. Millions of young brainwashed and turned into neurotic wrecks
13. Whole generations dumbed down
14. Corporate stranglehold on politics and communication
15. Meaningless, farcical ‘democracy’

The rest of the summary of what I meant in the OP can be found in Post #67 on the 7th Page, in similar point form.
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07-02-2012, 08:10 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(07-02-2012 12:07 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  It just strikes me as awfully cynical to look at life in the US and call it a "mess".

Starcrash, why did you assume that I was talking about the US?

Many of us on this forum are from other places, all over the world! Big Grin

I know that for many Americans the US is all there is, but.... Tongue
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07-02-2012, 07:21 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(07-02-2012 07:01 AM)Zat Wrote:  The mess I was talking about:

Mess
1. Wars, all over the planet
2. Danger of nuclear, chemical, biological, space-based weapons (deployment or accident)
3. Environmental degradation
4. Massive levels of species extinction
5. Depletion and pollution of natural resources
6. Massive and unspeakable cruelty to animals on farms and in laboratories
7. Mass starvation on the planet
8. Epidemics and Pandemics at ever increasing rate
9. Climate change runaway threat and ongoing negative effects
10. Massive poverty, ostentatious gluttony, increasing desperation and crime
11. Fundamentalist Religion’s resurgence
12. Millions of young brainwashed and turned into neurotic wrecks
13. Whole generations dumbed down
14. Corporate stranglehold on politics and communication
15. Meaningless, farcical ‘democracy’


Yeah, I see where you're going with this, but I still think you're over-reacting. Most of these things are just fears of possible dangers, and a great number of them could be true in any time and place. Take wars, for instance. In the days of feudal kingdoms, life was nonstop war in nearly every country. War was, for many centuries, a part of life. Sure, that still may be true in some countries today (such as Zimbabwe or Sierra Lione) but those are exceptions to the rule that war is now an event rather than an accepted state of existence.

The environment has always been 'degrading', species have always been going extinct, starvation has always been a factor (although this is actually much less of a problem than it used to be, thanks to Norman Borlaugh and charities like Greenpeace). And then the last few that you list here are personal opinion rather than fact.

Again, I think you're just cynical. I may be US-centric, but I'm still aware of what time and technology have brought us compared to civilizations of the past. I think you're staring too intently at the 'debt' side of the ledger and worrying about repaying bills without realizing that the 'credit' we have might just make up for it... because these problems exist, there are people working on fixing them, and at no time in history have we had such incredible ability to fix problems (because of technology and knowledge-sharing abilities). Besides, even if I accepted that we are 'in a mess', assigning blame would be the last thing I'd worry about.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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07-02-2012, 07:30 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
Starcrash, since you said you did not read through the whole thread, it might save us a lot of time if you did that before we discussed it any further.

One comment: you may want to look up the word 'cynical' to make sure you use it correctly.

Many people misuse it, meaning pessimistic or something along those lines.

Let me know when you had the chance of reading all the arguments both by me and by others and that you thought it over carefully, considering it from every angle presented in the thread. Smile
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