Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
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27-01-2012, 03:32 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:26 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 03:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  Blaming science for existing is to shirk one's own responsibility.

Is that what I did? Huh

PS. The 'Like" was an accident. I meant to click on Edit! Big Grin

Yes, by blaming science.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-01-2012, 03:34 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2012 03:35 PM by Zat.)
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:30 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Without people making guns, people couldn't kill people with guns.

(another accident with the "Like" button -- I have to watch for that! Big Grin )


(27-01-2012 03:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, by blaming science.
There is a difference between science and scientists. I blamed some of the latter and explained why.
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27-01-2012, 03:36 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:34 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 03:30 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Without people making guns, people couldn't kill people with guns.

(another accident with the "Like" button -- I have to watch for that! Big Grin )

But you're removing the individual responsibility of the person and puting it on an inanimate object. Are you suggesting that if a person shoots and kills someone they shouldn't be held responsible because it was the gun's fault?

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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27-01-2012, 03:39 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:36 PM)germanyt Wrote:  But you're removing the individual responsibility of the person and puting it on an inanimate object. Are you suggesting that if a person shoots and kills someone they shouldn't be held responsible because it was the guns fault?

I put the blame on the person who makes the gun, not on the gun itself.

And, of course, nobody excuses the killer.

Observe the cause-and-effect chain here.
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27-01-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:34 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 03:30 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Without people making guns, people couldn't kill people with guns.

Lame. They'd just use swords, knives, bludgeons, etc. like they have for thousands of years.

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(27-01-2012 03:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, by blaming science.
There is a difference between science and scientists. I blamed some of the latter and explained why.

You can't have science without scientists. Atomic and thermonuclear weapons have always been possible; the principles to make them would have been discovered eventually with or without a war; the decision to develop them was made by politicians.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-01-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:39 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 03:36 PM)germanyt Wrote:  But you're removing the individual responsibility of the person and puting it on an inanimate object. Are you suggesting that if a person shoots and kills someone they shouldn't be held responsible because it was the guns fault?

I put the blame on the person who makes the gun, not the gun itself.

And, of course, nobody excuses the killer.

Observe the cause-and-effect chain here.


What about the person who makes the butter knife that someone else uses to stab someone? What about GM when someone drives a Silverado over another person intentionally? Responsiblity ultimately lies with the offender. It is not the gun makers fault that someone chose to shoot another person. As a matter of fact, if everyone had a gun as was trained on how to use it there would be little to no violent crime. Guns solve more problems than they cause. And placing blame on the maker only serves to promote legislation that further restricts individual rights and liberties.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

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27-01-2012, 03:47 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  the decision to develop them was made by politicians.

The decision to develop them was first suggested by Leo Szilard (Physicist), fully embraced by Wigner (Physicist), suggested to Roosevelt by Einstein (Physicist).

The Hydrogen Bomb was passionately pursued by Edward Teller (Physicist) and then they all (except Teller) had second thoughts AFTER Hiroshima. You would think that genius-caliber scientists could have guessed what the weapons were made for?
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27-01-2012, 03:49 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:47 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 03:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  the decision to develop them was made by politicians.

The decision to develop them was first suggested by Leo Szilard (Physicist), fully embraced by Wigner (Physicist), suggested to Roosevelt by Einstein (Physicist).

The Hydrogen Bomb was passionately pursued by Edward Teller (Physicist) and then they all (except Teller) had second thoughts AFTER Hiroshima. You would think that genius-caliber scientists could have guessed what the weapons were made for?

Hiroshima was unfortunate and I'm ashamed of it but today the mere presense of nuclear weapons is what stops people from using them. Just like everyone with a gun on their hip at McDonalds would stop anyone from robbing it.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

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27-01-2012, 03:51 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:43 PM)germanyt Wrote:  What about the person who makes the butter knife that someone else uses to stab someone?

A butter knife has a sane purpose: spread butter.

A nuclear bomb has only an insane purpose: destroy cities and the planet.

You can't destroy the planet with a butter knife.
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27-01-2012, 03:52 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 03:47 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 03:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  the decision to develop them was made by politicians.

The decision to develop them was first suggested by Leo Szilard (Physicist), fully embraced by Wigner (Physicist), suggested to Roosevelt by Einstein (Physicist).

The Hydrogen Bomb was passionately pursued by Edward Teller (Physicist) and then they all (except Teller) had second thoughts AFTER Hiroshima. You would think that genius-caliber scientists could have guessed what the weapons were made for?

It was known that the Nazis were working on an A-Bomb. What do you think the Allies should have done?

It was known that the Soviets were working on the H-Bomb. What do you think the democracies should have done?

You can judge the scientists, but you are not taking all the circumstances into account. You sound like those who condemn the U.S. for Hiroshima, but lack the context to do so.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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