Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
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27-01-2012, 08:03 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 06:47 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 06:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  This hippie's been doing that his entire 25+ year career. What's the problem?

GirlyMan, we have crossed swords over this last time I was around these parts.

You seemed to be more receptive back then, even admitting that you make yourself not think too much about these things.

Huh


(27-01-2012 06:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Are you assuming the the identification of "one" factor causing the "mess" will help "fix" the mess ? If so, what exactly are you suggesting be done about it, after the identification ? Is pessimism a solution ?

I identified 3 main culprits in the OP, not one.

Identifying the problem is important before thinking about solutions.

I made a proposal for a new social contract before -- a proposal that was spawned from unjustified optimism.

Let me know when you're done with the simplistic blame game, and get on with the solutions.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-01-2012, 08:21 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2012 08:29 PM by Zat.)
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 08:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Let me know when you're done with the simplistic blame game, and get on with the solutions.

It's right above your head, one line up, in blue! Big Grin

Simplistic?

With massive research, tons of sources, data and quotes, complex and reasoned arguments?

Your arguments so far:

1. There is no mess
2. There may be mess but nobody to blame
3. stop blaming those responsible and give us a solution.

BB, you are funny, really. Tongue
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27-01-2012, 08:29 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 06:39 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 06:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  So, the 'mess' is the existence of nuclear weapons?

I said 'carefully'.

In the OP I listed a number of other things I blame many scientists for. It can be expanded upon at will. I assumed everybody would be familiar with the many, many irresponsible ways many, many scientists harm the public good. Wars, destruction of the environment, species extinction, outright lies about inconvenient truths, ... it is a long list.

And BEFORE you say it again, I don't blame science itself and I don't blame ALL scientists, only those who do/cause harm.

I know it is silly of me, but I never liked harm to living things.

And, yes, I know, science has done incredibly beneficial things for us.

Smile

I'm pretty much with you on this except I think your conclusion of putting science at the top of the list is not really supportable. Scientists today are saying very clearly that man's actions threaten the environment in oh so many ways, and that it is human policies that keep us on this downward spiral.
The problem is people who ignore the science.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-01-2012, 08:31 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2012 08:45 PM by Zat.)
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 08:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm pretty much with you on this except I think your conclusion of putting science at the top of the list is not really supportable. Scientists today are saying very clearly that man's actions threaten the environment in oh so many ways, and that it is human policies that keep us on this downward spiral.
The problem is people who ignore the science.

I put the scientists to the top because they have the power to cause the destruction of the planet. Once we averted that danger, than we can deal with the rest of them.

Chas, have you read my Post #40?

And yes, many responsible scientists warn us of the danger as documented in the "World Scientists Warning to Humanity" document.

I don't blame them -- I blame those they are implicitly warning against, as I explained in Post #40.
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27-01-2012, 09:04 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 08:31 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 08:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm pretty much with you on this except I think your conclusion of putting science at the top of the list is not really supportable. Scientists today are saying very clearly that man's actions threaten the environment in oh so many ways, and that it is human policies that keep us on this downward spiral.
The problem is people who ignore the science.

I put the scientists to the top because they have the power to cause the destruction of the planet. Once we averted that danger, than we can deal with the rest of them.

Chas, have you read my Post #40?

And yes, many responsible scientists warn us of the danger as documented in the "World Scientists Warning to Humanity" document.

I don't blame them -- I blame those they are implicitly warning against, as I explained in Post #40.

It seems you blame the scientists more than you do the power elite. Why? Are scientists supposed to be morally superior, therefor their sin is greater?

It is those in power who provide the temptation and coercion. They have the greater blame.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-01-2012, 09:12 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2012 09:25 PM by Zat.)
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 09:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  It seems you blame the scientists more than you do the power elite. Why? Are scientists supposed to be morally superior, therefor their sin is greater?

It is those in power who provide the temptation and coercion. They have the greater blame.

Cause-and-effect, Chas.

Without scientists' cooperation, the planet would not be in danger today.

Scientists are highly intelligent people, they can't help knowing the possible consequences of their actions.

The ruling elite is usually comprised of psychological manipulators with low-level cunning or megalomaniacs obsessed with power.

They are like dangerous juvenile delinquents who would need parental supervision/control and not indulgence by those who have the brains to think ahead and consider complex issues and long-term consequences.

It would be the scientists' responsibility to give advice and say NO, when necessary.

Without them, the ruling elites could do nothing because they have not got the brains and experience to design cruise missiles.

Remove the cause/prerequisite and you will have removed the consequences.

PS.

Scientists ought to be in a "Global Science Guild" with very clear rules of what the scientific ethics can not allow scientists to do. Like a Scientific Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm!"
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27-01-2012, 09:28 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
How would you hold them to such? Afterall we have countries that decide to go through with unethical experiments. Look at north korea for instance. They were told - "You'd better not test that damn rocket!" and said "We'll whatever the hell we want to, and if you try to stop us we'll violently act on you!"

They went ahead and did it. It failed. But they went through with their experiment.
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27-01-2012, 09:30 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 09:12 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 09:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  It seems you blame the scientists more than you do the power elite. Why? Are scientists supposed to be morally superior, therefor their sin is greater?

It is those in power who provide the temptation and coercion. They have the greater blame.

Cause-and effect, Chas.

Without scientists' cooperation, the planet would not be in danger today.

The planet and all of life is always in danger. The planet is at risk from many other (natural) sources that scientists may be able to save it from.
Meteor strike, pandemic, ice age, super volcano, ...

Quote:Scientists are highly intelligent people, they can't help knowing the possible consequences of their actions.

Wrong. No one can foresee all the consequences of their actions. Well-meaning scientists have done things that had very bad outcomes, like introducing an alien species to combat some pest. Or used a medical treatment that had deleterious long-term effects.

Quote:The ruling elite is usually comprised of psychological manipulators with low-level cunning or megalomaniacs obsessed with power.

They are like dangerous juvenile delinquents who would need parental supervision/control and not indulgence by those who have the brains to think ahead and consider complex issues and long-term consequences.

It would be the scientists' responsibility to give advice and say NO, when necessary.

And be imprisoned. Or tortured. Or killed. Or have their loved ones imprisoned or tortured or killed.

Quote:Without them, the ruling elites could do nothing because they have not got the brains and experience to design cruise missiles.

Remove the cause/prerequisite and you will have removed the consequences.

In some ideal world not inhabited by imperfect humans, but not here.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-01-2012, 09:33 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 09:28 PM)Logisch Wrote:  How would you hold them to such?

In this thread I was not talking about solutions but about identifying the problems.

Every doctor needs a diagnosis before attempting treatment.

Treatment, if possible at all (we do have deadly diseases) is a very complex task and it has to be based on thoroughly analyzed basic principles.

I attempted to propose one possible way that might work and I provided a link to it a few posts up.

But, in this thread, I would like to continue analyzing the problems and the cause-and-effect chains leading to them.
(27-01-2012 09:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. No one can foresee all the consequences of their actions. Well-meaning scientists have done things that had very bad outcomes, like introducing an alien species to combat some pest. Or used a medical treatment that had deleterious long-term effects.

True, but some consequences are a lot easier to predict than some others. Nuclear weapon development was a no-brainer. So was sole dependence on fossil fuels. It is a long list of dangers that science fiction writers have been writing about for many decades.

Quote:In some ideal world not inhabited by imperfect humans, but not here.

You may be right about that, I am afraid.
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27-01-2012, 10:32 PM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
Nuclear weapon development is not a no-brainer. If one ethical scientist doesn't create it, an unethical one will. In an ideal world no ethical scientist would ever have reason to create nuclear weapons, but as Chas said, we don't live in that kind of world.

I'm not necessarily claiming nuclear weapon development is justified, because I honestly don't know the answer to that, I'm only saying it is not a simple black and white matter.
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