Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
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28-01-2012, 12:27 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
The thing that I don't like Zat, is this thing with "scientists are the culprits".

You don't say anywhere 'some evil men who happened to be gifted scientists'. You seem to be arguing for discriminating against *all* scientists.

Besides which... politics drove the bomb development and all the progress made with bombs. If US / USSR politicians hadn't wanted ever bigger weapons to threaten each other with there woulda been no atomic bombs. I contend that no single one of those men who worked on the A bomb and H bomb was thinking "hehehehehe now I'll show 'em". That was reserved for the politicians.

If you want to hold anyone responsible for the evil fruits of science, then you have to hold society as a whole responsible. Without WWII there would have been no need to develop bombs, no fear that the Germans would get there first. Without racism and xenophobia there woulda been no killing of Jews. Without moving out of the stone age there would have been no progress.

Sorry, but as Bucky said, there is no small (two or three or four or five) group of people you can point fingers at and say "It was yoooooooou!" The face in the mirror is our own, even monkeys know that.
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28-01-2012, 04:39 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 08:21 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 08:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Let me know when you're done with the simplistic blame game, and get on with the solutions.
With massive research, tons of sources, data and quotes, complex and reasoned arguments?

Your arguments so far:

1. There is no mess
2. There may be mess but nobody to blame
3. stop blaming those responsible and give us a solution.

BB, you are funny, really. Tongue

Yes, simplistic.

Your premise/arguments so far :

1. There is a "mess" without defining a "mess".
2. An implicit "Appeal to Authority", (fallacious) argument that because something you say is :
a.) written in (your unpublished) a book is therefore true, with no evidence for it,
b.) part of a set of (self contratulatory), "massive research" data, is also valid, because of it's, (purported) size, without providing any.
3. a number of obviously made-up quotes, in an attempt to do a "reductio ad absurdum",
4. provided 3 "top" groups assuming they are each a homogeneous group, (which they are obviously not)

(27-01-2012 08:21 PM)Zat Wrote:  ·We need it to defend our nation
·These weapons will prevent war
·The enemy won’t stop, so we can’t either
·If I don’t do it, someone else will
·It is a great challenge and “super physics”
·Nobody else would fund my research
·It’s the only job I could find
·It’s a living
·It is fun!

Please tell us exactly where those quotes came from, when, and from whom.
(Is that from the "massive" research ? )

(27-01-2012 08:21 PM)Zat Wrote:  "As I said, I used my arguments, carefully researched and considered. If they don't convince you, nothing further I could possible say will."

True, I remain totally unconvinced.
Saying your reasearch is done "carefully and considered" is also not gonna fly.
So was the research of the person who released the Anthrax virus in 2011, and all your other "evil" scientists. Another fallacious appeal to "special" authority.

You still ducked the question of why affixing blame is a productive enterpise.

Sorry but I seem to have missed all that "massive" whatever, somewhere. Is it here somewhere.

By all means, wallow away, in the "glass is, (more than), half empty position. Hope you thoroughly enjoy yourself over there.

You're really funny too. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-01-2012, 04:58 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
I don't care about who to blame.

I care about solutions, not about guilt.

Observer

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Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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28-01-2012, 08:14 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(27-01-2012 09:33 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(27-01-2012 09:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. No one can foresee all the consequences of their actions. Well-meaning scientists have done things that had very bad outcomes, like introducing an alien species to combat some pest. Or used a medical treatment that had deleterious long-term effects.

True, but some consequences are a lot easier to predict than some others. Nuclear weapon development was a no-brainer. So was sole dependence on fossil fuels. It is a long list of dangers that science fiction writers have been writing about for many decades.

Scientists have not been responsible for our society's dependence on fossil fuels. And if you are going to insist they are because they haven't come up with something better, then you are guilty of naivete or of torturing the facts to make them fit your thesis.

You also seem to be lumping technicians, engineers, experimental scientists, and theorists all together. If theorists are guilty, when do you suppress a theorist's work to stop him from doing something dangerous? The point is that you can't know when.

How far back to you want to take the blame game? Ernest Rutherford did not work on the atomic bomb, but his work was seminal in atomic theory. Does he get blamed? How about the Curies?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-01-2012, 08:43 AM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2012 09:07 AM by Zat.)
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
Tell you what guys.

I have provided enough data, quotes, arguments in this thread and its companion I linked to earlier to fill a small book. It took me many years, massive research and and awful lot of thinking and analyzing to come up with my conclusions.

Most of you don't really know what my conclusions are because you are constantly accusing me of things I never said, even of opposites of what I have said. This proves that many of you skipped a lot of my posts and have not had time to think it over.

So here is my suggestion:

Read through both threads (this and the "Dark Side of Science" thread) very carefully and then think about it. Give yourself a chance to let the whole issue sink in. Think big picture: globe, humanity, history and think of the cause-and-effect chains I tried to explain in Post #40.

Give it at least a week.

Then, if you have done all of that, and still think you want to continue this conversation, we can give it another chance.

Until then, I am out of here. Smile

(28-01-2012 12:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  The thing that I don't like Zat, is this thing with "scientists are the culprits".

morondog, I identified several culprits.

Quote:You don't say anywhere 'some evil men who happened to be gifted scientists'. You seem to be arguing for discriminating against *all* scientists..

I specifically said that I don't blame all scientists, only those who do harm.

Quote:Besides which... politics drove the bomb development and all the progress made with bombs.

In one of the posts I specifically counted the scientists who imagined, conceived of and promoted the bomb BEFORE the politicians even knew such a thing was possible

Quote:If you want to hold anyone responsible for the evil fruits of science, then you have to hold society as a whole responsible.

I have done that too in the OP

Quote: Without WWII there would have been no need to develop bombs, no fear that the Germans would get there first. Without racism and xenophobia there woulda been no killing of Jews. Without moving out of the stone age there would have been no progress.

As I explained in Post $40, the interplay between inventors and rulers goes way beck to pre-history. The world did not just get started with the Industrial Revolution of WWI.

Quote:Sorry, but as Bucky said, there is no small (two or three or four or five) group of people you can point fingers at

Yes, and I have said that too. But, as with any building, there are structural elements the rest of the building depends on, without which the building would collapse. These structural elements in human history have been the inventors, scientists, engineers, technicians -- all of those who have the power to keep us alive or destroy us all.

And, with these comments I am truly gone for a week as I said before. I only wanted to respond to morondog in detail because I know he will think about my answers. Smile
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28-01-2012, 09:19 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
Quote:And, with these comments I am truly gone for a week as I said before. I only wanted to respond to morondog in detail because I know he will think about my answers. Smile

Appreciate the vote of confidence but I'm just another mug Tongue And besides, these guys are good too. You're arguing quite a fine line here and people are gonna throw mud at you...

I will reread and think about though Smile
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28-01-2012, 09:30 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(28-01-2012 08:43 AM)Zat Wrote:  Tell you what guys.

I have provided enough data, quotes, arguments in this thread and its companion I linked to earlier to fill a small book. It took me many years, massive research and and awful lot of thinking and analyzing to come up with my conclusions.

Most of you don't really know what my conclusions are because you are constantly accusing me of things I never said, even of opposites of what I have said. This proves that many of you skipped a lot of my posts and have not had time to think it over.

So here is my suggestion:

Read through both threads (this and the "Dark Side of Science" thread) very carefully and then think about it. Give yourself a chance to let the whole issue sink in. Think big picture: globe, humanity, history and think of the cause-and-effect chains I tried to explain in Post #40.

Give it at least a week.

Then, if you have done all of that, and still think you want to continue this conversation, we can give it another chance.

Until then, I am out of here. Smile


Bullshit. How arrogant of you. You have not responded to the objections to your argument.

You imply that others have not read carefully or not given it enough thought.

This is chicken-shit hit-and-run.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-01-2012, 09:35 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(28-01-2012 09:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  I will reread and think about though Smile

Thank you, morondog, that is all I ask. Every line in every post is important to see my logic. You can't skip anything or you will lose the context and links in the logical chain.

Sloppy reading is why I am being accused of things that I disagree with myself and said so several times.

It is a big-picture issue, embracing all of humanity, all of the planet, all of human history.

Picking bits and pieces out of it randomly, without context, is not good -- it is pointless.

Everything is connected but you have to focus on the deciding structural elements the rest of the structure depends on.

Without that you keep going around in circles, just as we have done in this thread.

Going around in circles is not very productive.

Time to stand back and reflect, taking everything said into consideration.

Good luck!

Smile
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28-01-2012, 10:24 AM
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
Myself.

There's only a mess when I'm not thinking about my Gwynnies. Ain't blaming her, so it must be my fault. Zat seems to be doing same, referencing the identity of physicist.

Causal determinants only aid in prevention; blame is irrelevant. More pertinent is what is going to be done about it.

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28-01-2012, 10:26 AM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2012 10:29 AM by Chas.)
RE: Whom do you blame for the mess we are in and why?
(28-01-2012 09:35 AM)Zat Wrote:  Every line in every post is important to see my logic. You can't skip anything or you will lose the context and links in the logical chain.

Sloppy reading is why I am being accused of things that I disagree with myself and said so several times.

That is quite arrogant of you.

Quote:It is a big-picture issue, embracing all of humanity, all of the planet, all of human history.

Picking bits and pieces out of it randomly, without context, is not good -- it is pointless.

No, if it is all connected, then all it takes is one support in the structure to be weak for the edifice to crumble.

Quote:Everything is connected but you have to focus on the deciding structural elements the rest of the structure depends on.

And people's comments have picked on structural elements but you dismiss that as 'picking bits and pieces'.

Quote:Without that you keep going around in circles, just as we have done in this thread.

Going around in circles is not very productive.

Time to stand back and reflect, taking everything said into consideration.

You have not constructed a very solid argument. It is simplistic and does not take the complexity of the human condition into account.

Think about it and come back when you have something more well thought out to say.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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