Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
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20-12-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 06:33 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 04:17 AM)morondog Wrote:  Reltzik created us! It all makes sense now!

You, maybe. My Gwynnies created me. I Heart my Gwynnies. Big Grin

Ya but aren't you older than your Gwynnies? Consider

Doesn't that upset the space/time thingy? Shocking


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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20-12-2013, 06:42 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 06:41 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 06:33 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  You, maybe. My Gwynnies created me. I Heart my Gwynnies. Big Grin

Ya but aren't you older than your Gwynnies? Consider

Doesn't that upset the space/time thingy? Shocking

Since when do facts matter when it comes to belief?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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20-12-2013, 06:44 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 06:41 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 06:33 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  You, maybe. My Gwynnies created me. I Heart my Gwynnies. Big Grin

Ya but aren't you older than your Gwynnies? Consider

Doesn't that upset the space/time thingy? Shocking

Nonono, Gwynnies creating him is meant in the sense that before he had Gwynnies, he had nothing. Now with Gwynnies, he has something, is something and this all sort of resembles mishmash of being born again. Not quite like Elizabeth I where she became a virgin, but close enough considering his porn habits. Big Grin

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20-12-2013, 07:26 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:14 PM)savedwheat Wrote:  I just wanted you to know what I believe, why I believe it and why I can't change what I believe, because the evidence is too substantial and powerful.

Hi, and welcome to the forum. Before you reply to me I would like for you to first read my post to you in its entirety and ponder carefully what I wish to relay to you. You appear to employ rationalism rather well for a theist, so I anticipate you will not have much of a problem at all in following along.

Firstly, but of course you can change your beliefs, or even discard them. You have the ability to choose and also to make rational decisions. If this were not true you would not have made the choice in previous times to believe what you currently believe in the first place.

You will notice my signature quote at the bottom of my posts. You, being a rational person, will know that it is true for it is only reasonable, logical, and rational. Each and every one of us was born with absolutely no beliefs at all, so therefore, we were all atheists the day we were born. It wasn't until we could comprehend things that we began to be taught to believe in such things as your God, or other gods in other religions.

So hopefully you can accept this reality that you were not born to believe in anything, but as you grew up in the environment around you, you were taught to believe what you currently believe.

Is this not true?

So let's take a look at what also ails you, my friend.

Quote:For me there is no debate between atheism and theism, because I know the universe can't come from nothing--that which does not exist--for that which does not exist can't cause anything as it does not exist. So the universe has to come from something.

You, like millions or even billions of others, are conditioned to view existence along what we call a "time-line." You see existence as having an origin and also someday to have and end. However, there is something you should consider as another option and I will place it in the form of a couple questions:

What if the universe is eternal, and had no beginning, and will see no end? What if it is infinite, and has no size, shape, or dimensions at all?

Interesting questions aren't they? It is these types of questions that can make even the most seasoned physicist endlessly ponder about the very nature of existence.

But let's continue ...

Quote:Therefore, it stands to reason that nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated that we can call the uncreated Creator that always existed.

Why does the "uncreated Creator" have to be the god that you believe in, or any kind of a supreme deity? Why can it not be what I have suggested above; that the universe was never created. and instead, has always existed?

Remember when I said that you think along the terms of a time-line? Also, recall that I said that infinity and the eternal are possibilities? It is very easy to demonstrate to you that infinity actually does exist, for all you need to do to verify it is to start counting numbers ...1 ...2 ... 3... and you will already know that you can count an infinite number of numbers without ever reaching the end.

Science also demonstrates to us that matter and energy are in a constant state of change, meaning that energy converts to matter, and matter converts to energy. Therefore, when we see something such as an ancient ruin deteriorating, all that is is really happening is that over time the matter that comprises that ancient ruin is actually converting to energy.

Hence, the things we perceive as making an exit out of existence are actually simply changing their shapes, from one thing to the next. Therefore, whenever we "create" an object from another object- a wooden chair from a tree, for example- all we are doing is changing the shape of the tree. We are not really creating anything that did not already exist, and which has always existed in one shape or form previously.

In the most simple terms, what I am saying is that nothing has ever been created nor destroyed, for all things in existence have always existed either as energy, or as some shape of matter.

So how do we know if the universe is actually infinite? Well, if it is infinite, then we will never "know" per se because we could never find it boundaries, nor could we measure its width, height, or depth. However, at this current time according to the current state of our knowledge, we cannot find any boundary, width, height, or depth to the universe. What this means is, by default the universe is currently infinite according to the current state of our knowledge.

I can appreciate your beliefs. I do not condemn you, nor am I trying to encourage you to abandon them. All I am asking you to do is to dare to question what you believe and keep on searching for the truth of the matter.

Once again, welcome to the forum, and have a great day!

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How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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20-12-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 02:29 AM)savedwheat Wrote:  Here's another analogy. Imagine people arguing on a train. When the train arrives at the central station of a large city they are still arguing. After they get off they are stilling arguing. At some point they continue steadfast in their obstinacy and you can see them going off into the distance each building their own shacks to live in. If you were to go to the window of one of their cabins, you could peek inside and see them repeating the phrase, "I told you so."

Delusion is the foremost condition of being an atheist arguing on the internet.

Fixed.

Good job on making the effort to formulate your thoughts in your own way, rather than copying and pasting from elsewhere. Although none of your ideas are original as yet or anything we haven't heard before, it's nice to have someone express them in their own words.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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20-12-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
Each of your questions are already answered in the opening post.
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20-12-2013, 07:42 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
Some say how can we be sure something can't come from nothing, for we don't know all the things that have happened.

My response is you don't need to be God all knowing to follow the overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of trillions of cause and effects in nature.

Furthermore, such an approach is contradictory because obviously you are not the uncreated Creator, so you can't be God to know all things to know if God exists.

By demanding you must effectively be God to know God exists, you contradict yourself because obviously you are not the uncreated Creator if He exists.
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20-12-2013, 07:43 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 07:38 PM)savedwheat Wrote:  Each of your questions are already answered in the opening post.

Does that mean you have nothing else to say to us?

Too late, the uncreated creator stuff is back...who was our past proponent of the uncreated creator? I have forgotten.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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20-12-2013, 07:47 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 07:43 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 07:38 PM)savedwheat Wrote:  Each of your questions are already answered in the opening post.

Does that mean you have nothing else to say to us?

Too late, the uncreated creator stuff is back...who was our past proponent of the uncreated creator? I have forgotten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

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(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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20-12-2013, 07:48 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2013 07:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 07:42 PM)savedwheat Wrote:  Some say how can we be sure something can't come from nothing, for we don't know all the things that have happened.

My response is you don't need to be God all knowing to follow the overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of trillions of cause and effects in nature.

Furthermore, such an approach is contradictory because obviously you are not the uncreated Creator, so you can't be God to know all things to know if God exists.

By demanding you must effectively be God to know God exists, you contradict yourself because obviously you are not the uncreated Creator if He exists.

So your deity is a "he" ?
Does he have a weenie, or circulating testosterone levels. Or does he suffer from low T ?
On what basis do you KNOW "he" is a he, and not an "it", or a hemaphrodite ?
Does he get it on with the "she" gods ?
Please please. Do ME a "mercy" post. Pretty please.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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