Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
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19-12-2013, 10:46 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:44 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The two rules of atheism.

Rule 1. There is no God
Rule 2. If God exists, I hate Him

You clearly misunderstand the second rule. If god is real, and if he is precisely like the psychopath as depicted in the bible, then he is quite unworthy of worship.
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19-12-2013, 10:49 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:45 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(19-12-2013 10:38 PM)savedwheat Wrote:  Nature requires a creator outside of time and space, so the creator is uncreated, having no cause, but always existed.

And your infinite regress of creators fails for the same reason that if there was an infinite regress of cause and effects, you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so of your gods causing gods forever in the past.

Either your deity exists or not: if it does, it does so in a form of nature, time and space are in such a way irrelevant to the concept of straight existence, and thus requires a creator by your own rules man, if not, then that speaks for itself.
Nature proves the need for the uncreated Creator in the first post so the uncreated Creator exists and proved who He is specifically as was described as only the uncreated Creator can resurrect Himself.

Quote:Assuming you are right and the deity does not require a creator, why make an exception only for your deity and why can't the universe have existed 'forever' and merely had a self-contained reality which we perceive? In such a way the 'nature' to which you refer would have existed in the same way as your deity; without itself and the universe would have existed in and of itself by it's own virtue of existence outside time and space.

Please excuse me whilst I go stack turtles upon turtles.
There is no exception for the Christian God, but only the Christian God stands up the evidence as described in the first post.

Since nature proves the need for an uncreated Creator as described in the 1st post then the uncreated Creator is proven.
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19-12-2013, 10:53 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
What's wrong with "I don't know"? That's what scientists say on the matter.
Just because there is a gap doesn't mean God.

Quote:impersonal can't cause the personal.

Yes it can.

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19-12-2013, 10:56 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
Welcome to the site!

It's rather obvious that the universe was willed into existence by the flying spaghetti monster (he's a monster, not a god, so I can technically believe in him while still being an atheist). Just look at all the pasta around us. Drinking Beverage

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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19-12-2013, 10:58 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
P.S. - Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because...

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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19-12-2013, 11:03 PM (This post was last modified: 19-12-2013 11:28 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:14 PM)savedwheat Wrote:  I just wanted you to know what I believe, why I believe it and why I can't change what I believe, because the evidence is too substantial and powerful.

For me there is no debate between atheism and theism, because I know the universe can't come from nothing--that which does not exist--for that which does not exist can't cause anything as it does not exist. So the universe has to come from something.

But what is that something? For starters, that something can't be an infinite regress of cause and effects, because if there was an infinite regress of cause and effects in nature, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so. Infinite regress further contradicts itself because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you should have never existed, because a past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point now today.

Therefore, it stands to reason that nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated that we can call the uncreated Creator that always existed.

And since the uncreated Creator can't be less than us, it must have a mind for that which is less than a mind can't cause a mind. A mind is needed to create a mind--with self-awareness and God-consciousness. And we are personal so the uncreated Creator must be personal for the impersonal can't cause the personal. And as we are accessible so is the uncreated Creator must be accessible as His standards cannot be below our own. There are only 3 faiths in the world that are accessible with enough adherents to span the globe and not hidden from plain view or difficult to access: Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.

But Hinduism is false, because that would be silly for you to come back as a chicken if you were a bad human and never effectively deals with sin by receiving endless chances. And the god of Hinduism, Brahma, is considered impersonal it is said which is below our nature of being personal. Islam is false because it has no evidence six centuries later to claim Jesus never even went to the cross, contrary to the scores of evidence, Jesus died on the cross as the most documented person in antiquity who had more sources written about Him than any ten figures combined from antiquity within 150 years of their deaths.

Without knowing anything else, we know, therefore, Christianity must be true. But the proof for Christianity (the 66 books of the Bible proves itself to be true) is the resurrection of Jesus proving He is God as only God can resurrect Himself. Since there is no naturalistic explanation to account for the multiple eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings, therefore, it must be true they were with Jesus for 40 days after resurrection. Group hallucinations are medically impossible. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. The swoon theory wouldn't convince anyone Jesus is the risen Lord. The only plausible explanation is Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

I also believe God is infinitely greater than us so no amount of work or self-improvement can bridge the gap between us and God. We will always fall short and never fully satisfy God's heart. Islam and Hinduism follow this works based faith scheme of self-improvement, and they can never sure if they are saved. Only in Christianity do you find God personally enters His creation to save us when we can't save ourselves, by taking upon Himself the sins of the world to forgive any who would receive Him to be saved and receive eternal life. Instead of us working our way up to God, God condescends Himself for our benefit and pays the penalty in our stead. That is the greatest love ever known!

I just wanted you to know why I believe what I believe, for I don't know how to overturn this evidence, thus, locked into my faith as a Christian for that is the God I gave my life to be kept when I certainly couldn't keep myself saved. God draws all, but sadly many "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10.28). I would only ask that you hold yourself to the highest standard of evidence I have provided here. Don't accept anything less.

Praise the Lord!

Wrong savedchaff. So many lame old fallacies in one place. You should get an award. What are you ? Like 12 ?
An omnipotent creator could have created a race of robot universe creators, who were divinely endowed with the power to create universes.
Science has proven that what appears to be logical to human brains is not necessarily the way the universe works, (Relativity, Uncertainty etc), so there goes your "can't come from nothing" bullshit. As meaningless as "infinite regress", is "action" in a non-temporal dimension. Your deity can't "act" "before" she created time, as that is meaningless. There goes the creation bullshit. Minds need time, and structure to operate. (Obviously you have NO background in science), There is NO mind without a brain, and YOU have no proof there is one. You can CLAIM there is one, but you no evidence for one. Wishful thinking. An "uncreated creator" has to "exist". That means from eternity, non-existence ALSO exists, and your deity cannot BOTH participate, of necessity in (only 1/2) of Reality, AND be it's creator.
All your personal assertions have no reasoned evidence. A "person" is limited to ONE "personality", therefore not infinite. There goes THAT BS. (It's anthropomorphic projection). Christianity is entirely built on the BS of "salvation" which any scholar of Hebrew culture knows is utter crap. Saul of Tarsus made it up. The resurrection never happened, and there is no proof it did. In fact, it's obvious from the gospels it didn't happen, (torn temple curtain, other zombies rose, split rocks, earthquake that never happened). In fact Jesus probably never even existed. Muslims died by flying planes into towers, Were THEY right ? Did their deaths prove THEM right ?

Praise the lard.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-12-2013, 11:06 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
The exact same post in three different threads...that makes it all much more convincing. Dodgy

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19-12-2013, 11:15 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:38 PM)savedwheat Wrote:  
(19-12-2013 10:34 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Hold on; if the universe must have had a creator by dint of it existing, doesn't that mean that your supposed creator exists, and thus would itself require a creator, thus causing an infinite regress of creators by your own rules?
Nature requires a creator outside of time and space, so the creator is uncreated, having no cause, but always existed.

And your infinite regress of creators fails for the same reason that if there was an infinite regress of cause and effects, you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so of your gods causing gods forever in the past.

Define "existence", and in doing so, use NO term that invokes ANY temporal concept.
Good luck.
Take your time.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-12-2013, 11:22 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 11:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Define "existence", and in doing so, use NO term that invokes ANY temporal concept.
Good luck.
Take your time.

Excellent question.
I hope savedwheat will offer a reply.

I would define existence as the opposite of non-existence.

And I'm sure that any atheist who thinks there is no such thing as God, would know what they themselves mean by non-existence.
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19-12-2013, 11:22 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:27 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Great testimony savedweat.

Translation: WOW, just the sort of crock of shit that I, LyinIRk would post!"

Quote:Welcome to this friendly, reasonable, polite atheist venue.

Friendly, reasonable, polite, YES! And we expect the same of anyone who comes in here, and when unfriendly, unreasonable, impolite bullshit artists like you and this asshole "savedwheat" come stomping around in here with your bullshit "apologetic" (FUCK, I wish for ONCE you assholes would actually APOLOGIZE for your bullshit) snake oil pitches and your condescending self-righteous bullshit, we get real unfriendly real quick.

If I came into your house and took a shit on your living room couch, your hospitality would stop dead in its tracks. Quit pretending that your asinine bullshit here isn't any different.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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