Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
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19-12-2013, 11:25 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:44 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The two rules of atheism.

Rule 1. There is no God
Rule 2. If God exists, I hate Him

BULLSHIT.


Rule 1. You make an assertion , back it up with fucking EVIDENCE.

Rule 2. Extraordinary claims (like "there is this sky fairy that made the universe to come into being") requires EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-12-2013, 11:25 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:42 PM)savedwheat Wrote:  So the reason someone is an atheist is because they want to be eternally separated from God. God gives you that free choice--free choice is not free if you don't have this option. C.S. Lewis said you actually lock yourself in Hell from the inside because ultimately it's what you prefer and God gives you want you want in terms of where to dwell for eternity. But once you leave your body of flesh and blood the decision is final. In other words, you won't change your mind in a trillion years from now. No wonder why you never hear of anyone over the age of 40 ever giving their life to Christ, let alone a billion years later, for that was more than enough time to decide. Assuming the age of accountability is 15 years old for someone, that's 25 years x 365 days/yr = 9,125 days to decide.
To be an atheist is to not have a belief in god(s)
Gods were used to explain everything that early humans didn't know in the ancient world, now we have better answers and they work. There is no need for supernatural explanations anymore. There are many things that we don't know, to assume "god did it" is defeatism at its core.
Unfortunately I'm pretty sure talking to you about is going to be a waste of time.
Religion evolved along with us. It was a response to the human condition, we suffered we died, we felt great joy and love and a sense of community. We had to kill in order to survive, ancient man didn't see the separation of humans and other species. We are all animals, and this guilt that we felt killing these animals so that we can live gave rise to a coping mechanism known as religion. They bleed like us, they breathed like us, they were highly revered but we had to kill them so we may eat and live. We wore there skins for warmth, we learned how to hunt like them, we studied them and painted them. We fashioned there bones into tools, needles and sinew to sew their skins to make are clothes. Humans would not have survived if we had not done this. You or I would not be here today. Religion changes, when humans lived in communities, by the rivers a new religion has formed. It was agricultural we planted crops for the first time, no longer had we to track herds of animals. This freed us. Religion became more about community, rules and law. We began to domesticate animals for our food and milk, reverence for the animal has shrunken. Religions of the near east gave rise to a God that gave us agency over every living creature and the environment. It proclaimed that humans were separate. Higher beings, animals and the land were to be exploited. Animal sacrifices were for the God above, they were not our brethren anymore. No more were the animals honored, before they were seen as a willing sacrifice so we may live. Look where you are. Look around you. Humans are animals, there is no separation. Holding to ancient mythologies has no place in the modern world. We have a new one. It is more about the community, a global community. There was nothing like this before. We connect to the world, internet, phone, broadcast, the written word. We are all humans, unfortunately old mythologies separate us. You must see it, why persist? Lets look toward the future learn about are past we will find answers to the biggest questions in the universe. We have come very far, there is no going back. Would you? Would you ever want to go back? Read, listen, see what we know. In the ancient past we knew very little of our world, I respect our ancestors, they brought us this far, I will not have the world go back, they sacrificed to much.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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19-12-2013, 11:32 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
Follow this reasoning:

1) There is no empirical evidence that an intelligent being created the universe as we know it.

2) Because our understanding of physics is limited to observations of the known universe;
a) It may be possible that an intelligent being created the universe and either does not or cannot interact with it.
b) It may be possible that the known universe was a product of an impersonal physical process.

3) Because our known universe is finite, it gives rise to our issue with infinite regression.

4) Because both possibilities listed in point 2 can lead to infinite regression, we can only weigh their likelihood with our observations of the known universe.

5) From observations of the known universe, it seems that an intelligent creator is unlikely.

6) If our universe was intelligently designed, it may be possible that it was by one, or a multitude of beings. These beings need not be omnipotent or omniscient. Even if they are omniscient of the entirety of our known universe, they may not be omniscient on their own dimension (since they would have to exist outside of our known dimensions to have created these dimensions at the big bang). For example, if in our future, we were to run an advanced universe simulator which could give rise to intelligent forms; we may have complete knowledge of the happenings in the simulation, and yet, we probably wouldn't know everything about our own universe.

7) With plenty of possibilities, and no knowledge of what there was before the big bang, god shouldn't be any reasonable persons first bet.
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19-12-2013, 11:37 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2013 12:18 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 11:22 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(19-12-2013 11:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Define "existence", and in doing so, use NO term that invokes ANY temporal concept.
Good luck.
Take your time.

Excellent question.
I hope savedwheat will offer a reply.

I would define existence as the opposite of non-existence.

And I'm sure that any atheist who thinks there is no such thing as God, would know what they themselves mean by non-existence.

Nice try, except you failed again Pussy Cat IRC. Savedchaff made a specific positive assertion, and in the context of that assertion must IN POSITIVE terms, tell us what EXACTLY he means by the assertion, OR we can dismiss it as meaningless, just as we dismiss as meaningless ALL the other preposterous notions that we KNOW don't exist, (flying pink unicorns). IF YOU, on the other hand, are equating the evidence for the OPPOSITE of the nonexistence of flying pink unicorns as EQUIVALENT to that of your deity...well thank you very much. You just made my argument for me.

BTW Pussy Cat IRC, if I can provide you with evidence for an event which is as good or better than there is for the resurrection, do you agree to accept the event as real ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-12-2013, 11:43 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 11:25 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Rule 1. You make an assertion , back it up with fucking EVIDENCE.

a) I dont have to meet your standard of proof.
b) I have all the evidence I need. Smile
c) If you dont like the God conclusion, thats YOUR problem not mine.

(19-12-2013 11:25 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Rule 2. Extraordinary claims (like "there is this sky fairy that made the universe to come into being") requires EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE.

The most extraordinary claim is the one made by folk like you - that in the entire history of human kind, every single reported instance of the supernatural is false.
Every single, last one of them - ALL wrong. No discarnate consciousness. No afterlife. No sensus divinatus. No miracles. NOT ONE OF THEM has any basis in truth.

If you want God to jump through your empirical evidentiary hoops like some little dog obeying you on command before you decide whether or not to obey Him in return,
then Im afraid you have things gravely upside down.

[Image: 3084038793_7e7dc5939f.jpg]
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19-12-2013, 11:52 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:44 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The two rules of atheism.

Rule 1. There is no God
Rule 2. If God exists, I hate Him

Cool Lion - I had no idea you were coming to your senses and discovering your atheism! Just to clarify: your rule 1 is ok but rule 2 - nope - there is no rule 2. Makes things all tidy that way. Shy

Don't forget to pick up your complimentary cookies, your big red "A" badge, and the free audiobook download of The God Delusion. Enjoy reality. Thumbsup
***
***

Hi Savedwheat, guess you didn't read the rules, huh? Oh well.

Welcome to the forum. Smile

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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19-12-2013, 11:53 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 11:43 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  a) I dont have to meet your standard of proof.
b) I have all the evidence I need. Smile
c) If you dont like the God conclusion, thats YOUR problem not mine.

Actually it is your problem. You DO have to meet a reasonable standard of evidence if you expect to engage with reasonable people, and not just preach crap, and expect sheep like at your fundie church, to buy into it. Sorry. That might work in your pathetic, world, but not here. What are you doing here, then ? Explain that, Pussy Cat IRC ?

(19-12-2013 11:43 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The most extraordinary claim is the one made by folk like you - that in the entire history of human kind, every single reported instance of the supernatural is false.
Every single, last one of them - ALL wrong. No discarnate consciousness. No afterlife. No sensus divinatus. No miracles. NOT ONE OF THEM has any basis in truth.

Reality is not dependent on numbers, votes, or polls. Ad populum fallacy, Pussy Cat. There is no god to jump through hoops. That's just a lame old rationalization for why your deity is so lame and powerless, and never shows herself. Just your worthless claims, for which there is not a shred of evidence. As a matter of fact EVERY single reported instance of "supernatural" can be explained, and things that can't be explained are not put in the "oh god must have done it pile", but in the "we don't get that yet" pile. It's a matter of worldview. YOU prefer to jump the god of the gaps arguments. Atheists don't.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-12-2013, 11:55 PM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 11:43 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(19-12-2013 11:25 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Rule 1. You make an assertion , back it up with fucking EVIDENCE.

a) I dont have to meet your standard of proof.
b) I have all the evidence I need. Smile
c) If you dont like the God conclusion, thats YOUR problem not mine.

(19-12-2013 11:25 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Rule 2. Extraordinary claims (like "there is this sky fairy that made the universe to come into being") requires EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE.

The most extraordinary claim is the one made by folk like you - that in the entire history of human kind, every single reported instance of the supernatural is false.
Every single, last one of them - ALL wrong. No discarnate consciousness. No afterlife. No sensus divinatus. No miracles. NOT ONE OF THEM has any basis in truth.

If you want God to jump through your empirical evidentiary hoops like some little dog obeying you on command before you decide whether or not to obey Him in return,
then Im afraid you have things gravely upside down.

[Image: 3084038793_7e7dc5939f.jpg]
He does have a point, how can we deny all those years of superstition?
All those other gods must be real!

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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20-12-2013, 12:06 AM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2013 12:24 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
Is this the beginning of the silly season?

Ah well, gives me something to do while I'm not celebrating christmas.

I'm liking how most responses so far have not even bothered to think about rising to the bait... just kinda...

"Meh! The homeschooling is strong in this one" ... a combo of pity and ennui.

Are we getting a little jaded, ladies and gentlemen?

Smile

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20-12-2013, 12:08 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(19-12-2013 10:14 PM)savedwheat Wrote:  I just wanted you to know what I believe,

Who the fuck are you, and who do you think gives a flying FUCK what you believe? Narcissist much, asshole?


Quote:why I believe it

We already know WHY you believe it -- because you are a delusional, narcissistic piece of shit. Next....


Quote:and why I can't change what I believe,

We know that, too. Because you are so full of your shit-- your fucking mental disease -- that you fell you have to come here and spread it.

Quote: because the evidence is too substantial and powerful.

WHAT fucking evidence. You wouldn't know EVIDENCE if it bent you over and fucked you in the ass.

Quote:For me[/quot]e

YEAH. In your little bullshit-filled, brainwashed mind.



[quote] there is no debate between atheism and theism,

And yet here you are, pandering your flaccid attempts at debating. How fucking droll.

Quote:because I know


You don't KNOW Jack Shit. You are merely going to make a BALD ASSERTION, and, reading ahead, pander a FALLACIOUS STRAWMAN ARGUMENT.



Quote:the universe can't come from nothing

ATHEISM is a disbelief in bullshit fairytale deities. It is NOT a requirement of said disbelief to make any sort of metaphysical claims, including that "the universe came from nothing" Go the fuck away, ,or, as Momsurroundedbyboys always says, SHOO THE FUCK UP A BOFFALO'S STINKING ASSHOLE, BLOWFLY!" .....Or something like that, anyway....



Quote:--that which does not exist--for that which does not exist can't cause anything as it does not exist. So the universe has to come from something.

As does your supposed deity, which you CANNOT prove. End of stupid argument, which isn't fucking evidence.

Oh, shit, the idiot insists on bleating on:


Quote:But what is that something? For starters, that something can't be an infinite regress of cause and effects, because if there was an infinite regress of cause and effects in nature, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened, having had an eternity to do so. Infinite regress further contradicts itself because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, you should have never existed, because a past eternity would go on for eternity never reaching this point now today.

Word.





Fucking.










Salad.










Look it up.




Quote:Therefore, it stands to reason.....



Not a fucking chance. Maybe you sorry fuck apologist dipshit think that this bullshit passes for "reason", but that's just you kidding yourselves with your own pathological lies.



Quote: that nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated that we can call the uncreated Creator that always existed.

No, it fucking DOESN'T, and your bullshit semantic prestidigitation of a supposed "UNCREATED 'Creator'" is the worst and stupidest example of semantic bullshit in the history of the fucking planet. It's fucking stupid, give it up.




Quote:And since the uncreated Creator can't be less than us,[/quot]e

WHY? Because you fucking SAY so? Rolleyes




[quote] it must have a mind for that which is less than a mind can't cause a mind. A mind is needed to create a mind--with self-awareness and God-consciousness.

Did you throw a bunch of word magnets against your fucking refrigerator and post the resultant nonsense when you came up with that bullshit? Only because it makes just as much sense.



Quote:And we are personal so the uncreated Creator must be personal for the impersonal can't cause the personal. And as we are accessible so is the uncreated Creator must be accessible as His standards cannot be below our own. There are only 3 faiths in the world that are accessible with enough adherents to span the globe and not hidden from plain view or difficult to access: Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.

Oh, wait -- you threw your fucking UNDERWEAR against your fucking refrigerator, and posted the resulting horrific splattered mess, and that's what you came up with. got it.



Quote:But Hinduism is false, because that would be silly for you to come back as a chicken if you were a bad human and never effectively deals with sin by receiving endless chances. And the god of Hinduism, Brahma, is considered impersonal it is said which is below our nature of being personal. Islam is false because it has no evidence six centuries later to claim Jesus never even went to the cross, contrary to the scores of evidence, Jesus died on the cross as the most documented person in antiquity who had more sources written about Him than any ten figures combined from antiquity within 150 years of their deaths.

....getting....tired.....of....beating.....back....every....instance...of..bulls​hit......obvious bullshit is obvious.....



Quote:Without knowing anything else, we know, therefore, Christianity must be true.

Oh, wait. But it's a load of bullshit, Sorry to disillusion you. But there are a bunch of friendly atheists here who will console you in your sorrow to find that you were full of shit all this time. Really.




Quote:But the proof for Christianity

Proof is found in evidence. You have shown exactly ZERO evidence.

Quote:(the 66 books of the Bible proves itself to be true)

Um really? If I write 66 books about the Invisible Pink Unicorn (PINKIE, Where are you Bro?), would that make the myth true?


Quote:is the resurrection of Jesus

You mean the FAIRY STORY. Check.

Quote: proving He is God as only God can resurrect Himself.

Easily swayed by bullshit, aren't you. You should change your screen name to "CREDULOUS IDIOT".


Quote:Since there is no naturalistic explanation to account for the multiple eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings,

Um you seem to forget that these are stories in a fairytale book made up by iron-age goat-fuckers. I don't NEED to "provide a naturalistic explanation", or "account" for the events described in Grimm's Fucking Fairy Tales.


Quote: therefore, it must be true they were with Jesus for 40 days after resurrection.

Therefore, it must be true that you are a credulous, brainwashed idiot.



Quote:Group hallucinations are medically impossible. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. The swoon theory wouldn't convince anyone Jesus is the risen Lord.

Bullshit strawman much?


Quote: The only plausible explanation is Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

The only possible explanation is that you are a batshit-crazy idiot.

Quote:I also believe God is infinitely greater than us so no amount of work or self-improvement can bridge the gap between us and God.

Who gives a flying shit what you think, you narcissistic shitstain.


Quote:We will always blah blahblah...


<insert favorite masturbation image here>

Quote:I just wanted you to know why I believe what I believe,

NO one gives a fuck why you believe your superstitious bullshit.


Quote:for I don't know how to overturn this evidence,


Again. You wouldn't know what evidence was if it fucked you in the ass with a fucking Saguaro cactus.


Quote:thus, locked into my BULLSHIT as a Christian

fixed that for ya.


Quote:for that is the blah blah bnlah


<wank.gif>


Quote:I would only ask that you hold yourself to the highest standard of evidence I have provided here. Don't accept anything less.


EVIDENCE, REALLY?


FUCK.


NOT A SINGLE THING YOU SAID IN YOUR POST CONSTITUTES ANYTHING EVEN VAGUELY RESEMBLING ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CALLED "EVIDENCE".


Quote:Praise the Lord!

AND PASS THE PLATE OF BULLSHIT!

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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