Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
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20-12-2013, 02:28 AM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2013 02:32 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 01:31 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Are you, perchance, William Lane Craig's parrot? Consider

Don't you EVEN fucking DARE insinuate that any Psittacine would allow themselves to be subjugated, domesticated, castigated, berated, humiliated, or in ANY way even compared to, much less Denigrated -- and, even worse, criticized by -- some pathetic, lowly fucking HUMAN.



ESPECIALLY THE STUPIDEST FUCKING HUMAN ON THE FUCKING PLANET.

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You owe a HUGE apology to every Parrot on this fucking planet. OH, and every fucking Parrot in the fucking 'Verse, come to think about it.

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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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20-12-2013, 02:29 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
Here's another analogy. Imagine people arguing on a train. When the train arrives at the central station of a large city they are still arguing. After they get off they are stilling arguing. At some point they continue steadfast in their obstinacy and you can see them going off into the distance each building their own shacks to live in. If you were to go to the window of one of their cabins, you could peek inside and see them repeating the phrase, "I told you so."

Delusion is the foremost condition of being an atheist.
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20-12-2013, 02:34 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 02:14 AM)savedwheat Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 02:10 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  The part about infinite regress being impossible is fallacious.

So do you agree with the first point the fact something can't come from nothing? If we can agree to that we can move to the infinite regress matter.

By the way I don't use the contemporary Kalam either since I don't assume anything like Craig does in his first point of his contemporary argument. I first go to evidence.

I am not prepared to rule out spontaneous generation, not without strong evidence against it and a more precise definition of terms. I will grant that what you seem to be talking about is not a commonplace event in our universe, at least not in any manner we might easily see it, but that renders it only mildly implausible rather than flat-out impossible. I'd also say the same thing about causation: It's highly evident in our day-to-day life and appears to be the norm, but I'd accept the possibility that an exceptional effect (such as the beginning of a finite history) could have been causeless. I'm not prepared take the everyday behavior of the surrounding universe, some estimated 15 billion years into its existence, and assume the same rules applied in the very beginning. I'll review evidence to that effect, and accept it if it is convincing, but I won't just blithely assume it.

(20-12-2013 02:14 AM)savedwheat Wrote:  This probably doesn't interest you, but incidentally, Craig is not a Christian because he is into works based salvation, rejecting John 10.28 which says those who are born-again "they shall never perish." Craig thinks if his works are not good enough he could still go to Hell. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox believe the same heresy.

That would explain Craig's unclear thinking on this matter since he does not have the Holy Spirit in his innerman.

Ah yes, the old debate of salvation through works, or faith, or ritual. Further on in your argument, when you used Christianity's numbers as part of its argument, did you deduct all the non-Christian Catholics, Eastern Orthodoxes, et cetera? Are there any other criteria for being a Christian that could make non-Christians identify as Christians and, if so, did you deduct them as well? What did you estimate the number of true Christians to be? How did this compare to the the number needed to be a serious contender for the world religion? What exactly is the number required to span the globe, anyway? ... and didn't this number come into play before you brought in a literal reading of the Bible? Whatever, I'm sure we'll parse all that out if we get that far.

((Bedtime for me, I'll be up and replying in the morning.))
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20-12-2013, 02:36 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
Savedwheat can I ask you a question? Do you view the Genesis account in the bible as accurate?
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20-12-2013, 02:38 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 02:25 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 02:00 AM)savedwheat Wrote:  I sense the evil spirits and demonic spirits slashing around those emotions of you atheists. You get a sense of what Hell is like by that.

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I FUCKING LAUGHED SO HARD........



......Both at your response, and to the abject idiocy you were responding to....


Tongue

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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20-12-2013, 02:39 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 01:19 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  First, your argument against infinite regress on the grounds of never reaching the present is a common error. It's like saying that the universe can't extend infinitely in every direction, because we'd never have reached this present point from the edge.

One of the reasons we need to take this slow is because one of the first things you said is totally wrong. In fact, everything you say is wrong so I need to feed you bite size chunks. How can I give you meat if you have trouble even drinking milk?

This analogy you propose makes no sense at all. While it is true if you want to introduce infinite regress, it certainly has the problem that it goes on forever in the past so as to never reach this point. That's what a past eternity is. And I believe the universe can extend infinitely in every direction in an expansion, and we could be one of those points along the way. What you fail to realize is that we are addressing the past not an expansion of the future. In your analogy you are talking about the future expansion of the universe, but the problem of infinite regress is not its future direction but it's alleged past eternity which has ramifications being it goes on for eternity so as to never reach this point. So your analogy fails and the point stands.
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20-12-2013, 02:40 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 02:27 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  The universe can not be the cause of itself because a thing that does not exist can't cause anything ( including itself) but the universe did not begin so it's always existed which means it never did not exist and there for has no need to come into existence cause it already existed.

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20-12-2013, 02:46 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 02:39 AM)savedwheat Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 01:19 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  First, your argument against infinite regress on the grounds of never reaching the present is a common error. It's like saying that the universe can't extend infinitely in every direction, because we'd never have reached this present point from the edge.

One of the reasons we need to take this slow is because one of the first things you said is totally wrong. In fact, everything you say is wrong so I need to feed you bite size chunks. How can I give you meat if you have trouble even drinking milk?

This analogy you propose makes no sense at all. While it is true if you want to introduce infinite regress, it certainly has the problem that it goes on forever in the past so as to never reach this point. That's what a past eternity is. And I believe the universe can extend infinitely in every direction in an expansion, and we could be one of those points along the way. What you fail to realize is that we are addressing the past not an expansion of the future. In your analogy you are talking about the future expansion of the universe, but the problem of infinite regress is not its future direction but it's alleged past eternity which has ramifications being it goes on for eternity so as to never reach this point. So your analogy fails and the point stands.

It makes fine sense if one understands the notion of an infinite set, unbound above OR below, from a mathematical standpoint. But I'll withdraw it as it hasn't gotten through to you. Instead, I'll emphazie the metaphor of negative numbers. Is there a lowest negative number? If so, why can we not consider that number minus 1? If not, how can we start counting and ever reach, say, 7? Does the notion of a negative infinity prevent 7 from existing? It doesn't. Why then, can we not have an infinite past, as we have infinite negative numbers?

((And now bedtime for reals.))
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20-12-2013, 02:47 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 02:34 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  I am not prepared to rule out spontaneous generation, not without strong evidence against it and a more precise definition of terms.

We observe trillions of cause and effects in nature and no spontaneous generation of anything, for that which does not exist can't cause anything to exist. That which does not exist always does not exist, always and anon. This is the evidence. I can only go with the evidence, which is why I am speaking to you the way I am. These trillions of cause and effects are an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Think of yourself like a gambler who is rolling the dice and hoping to come up with a 1 in a 10 trillion sided die. Good luck with that. What you are engaging in is called false humility. If trillions of cause and effects and no hard evidence to the contrary is not good enough for you then nothing will be. That's why Hell is necessary for the obstinate and belligerent.
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20-12-2013, 02:49 AM
RE: Why Am I a Theist, not an Atheist, and Not Just Any Kind of Theist
(20-12-2013 02:39 AM)savedwheat Wrote:  One of the reasons we need to take this slow is because one of the first things you said is totally wrong. In fact, everything you say is wrong so I need to feed you bite size chunks. How can I give you meat if you have trouble even drinking milk?

This analogy you propose makes no sense at all. While it is true if you want to introduce infinite regress, it certainly has the problem that it goes on forever in the past so as to never reach this point. That's what a past eternity is. And I believe the universe can extend infinitely in every direction in an expansion, and we could be one of those points along the way. What you fail to realize is that we are addressing the past not an expansion of the future. In your analogy you are talking about the future expansion of the universe, but the problem of infinite regress is not its future direction but it's alleged past eternity which has ramifications being it goes on for eternity so as to never reach this point. So your analogy fails and the point stands.

pre·ten·tious
priˈtenCHəs
adjective

1. Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.



Aw, isn't that cute, all pretending he know what he's talking about and shit! That would be so precious, if it wasn't so god-damn sad...

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