Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
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05-02-2013, 08:18 AM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 07:56 AM)Zat Wrote:  ...
On another forum, on the same topic, I was asked:

Quote:How do we know when it's acceptable, and how do we know when to try to prevent someone from killing himself?
...
The same way we deal with every questionable case: investigate on a one-by-one basis and prosecute if there is evidence of wrongdoing. As I said in the poem: "zero tolerance is the hallmark of the craven and the incompetent."

I know, "zero tolerance" is convenient for our politicians (they don't have to think, decide and maybe take a risk at the next election), but look at the price people have to pay for this cowardice and incompetence:

From Wikipedia:


=========================================

"Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia are cruel diseases that progress over time and eventually will lead to death.

Alzheimer's disease is the seventh leading cause of death in the United States.


Late-Stage Dementia Symptoms

A person with dementia may follow a fairly predictable pattern of decline through the seven stages of dementia. Once dementia has progressed to late-stage, death can generally be expected in 6 months to 1 year.

Symptoms of late-stage dementia include:
    Increased incidence of infections, such as urinary tract infections or pneumonia
    Impaired motor functions including difficulty walking and moving, causing the individual to be bed- or chair-bound
    Incontinence of bowel and bladder leading to full dependence on others for toileting and hygiene
    Loss of the ability to communicate through words
    Difficulty swallowing and eating, leading to weight loss and aspiration pneumonia
    Loss of facial expression, including the ability to smile.
    Eventual inability to sit up or hold up one's head without assistance.

Death from Late-Stage Dementia

Many individuals with late-stage dementia die of a medical complication, such as pneumonia or another infection.
However, dementia itself can be fatal. General wasting, malnutrition, and dehydration are real risks when an individual with dementia can no longer eat safely and move independently."

=========================================

Would you like to live like this for 6 months to a year?

I know I would not. And, if it was my wife, I would do everything to help her get over this needless suffering -- we have a mutual understanding in this regard.

We would probably travel to Switzerland (a civilized country) where Euthanasia is legal, even for foreigners.
One of my many aunts had Alzheimers. She was hospitalized in a care facilty and lived 35 years without being able to communicate, move, eat, drink or anything. She did not recognize people as far as one could tell, but when visitors would get ready to leave and say goodbye, tears would roll down an unmoving face.
What an absolutely horrific torturous way to be kept alive! I will definitely not ever get into such a helpless position.

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05-02-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
Laws are words on paper. They don't do anything. Only people do things.

So again, what or whom gives you or me the right to deprive an individual the disposal of his or her own property?

That's an important question because before you can argue the minutia you have to establish, legitimately, that you have the right of control over the property of others.
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05-02-2013, 08:56 AM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
Quote:Allowing people to be assisted in committing suicide to end their suffering would create a legal presumption of sanity.

If you want to die you're probably crazy. We can't tell whether any other reason you might have (terminal cancer, paralysis, gangrene, third degree burns to 90% of your body, etc) causes sufficient suffering for a sane person to end life. The law is such a blithering idiot that it can't differentiate between sarcoma and schizophrenia or between murder and suicide - so it must not be allowed to make life-and death decisions.
Besides, Big Omni knows, the only thing society needs more than angry, frustrated crazy people is very old ones who require hospital care for decades.

Seriously? You think the mentally ill get help if they don't try anything dramatic, but suffer quietly?

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05-02-2013, 09:09 AM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2013 09:12 AM by Zat.)
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 08:56 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  If you want to die you're probably crazy.
...
That's what young and healthy people say until they are old and suffering unbearable pain -- then they will scream for help to end the torture.

(PS. I know, Peterkin, that you were being facetious and maybe sarcasm will help those who can't see reason.)
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05-02-2013, 12:01 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 05:11 AM)Scientia Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 11:02 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  As someone who's watched people die from slow, humiliating deaths I'm all for assisted suicide (And I happen to live in the first state to legalize it).

Its very hard to actually be approved for it, probably too hard (imo)
You must be up around the PNW, like Oregon.

Quote: so.... its not like people are just going to be offing themselves left and right.
Suicide rates by state
http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/suicide

These are the rate per 100,000.
Yes I'm from the PNW. Thank goodness.

And when I said that statement about offing left and right. I was talking strictly about assisted suicides.

That being said....someone should be able to choose for themselves if they wish to continue being alive. *shrug*

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05-02-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
Quote: No matter how bad things are, committing suicide hurts so many more

people. I hate to say this publicly, but to me, it seems like a selfish

act. Of course, I cannot comprehend how bad life is for people who

think about doing such acts - so me saying that, is easy for me to say

and does unjust to those who suffer with these conditions (if it is a

condition).
As for hurting others, sure it hurts others. But who are you to say your suffering is worth more than their suffering (in the cases of those with painful terminal illness with no hope of getting better)? To me, it seems extremely selfish to force someone to endure constant pain so your feelings aren't hurt. I see this sort of thing said a lot, and to me, it seems dismissive of the (obviously severe, if they want to off themselves) pain the person in question is going through.

People act like legalizing assisted suicide would mean every teenager who scrapes their wrists with a razor because their BF/GF broke up with them would be able to get a lethal injection, and that would not happen at all. Nor would depressed people just walk in off the street to off themselves with no forethought. I'm sure it's a decision the person would spend a lot of time thinking through, considering that death is kind of a big deal.
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05-02-2013, 01:28 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
My mother recently died after having spent some years lost in dementia. She had other medical issues which had already diminished her life.

From many talks with my mother over my life, I am quite sure that, had it been legal, she would have had instructions in a living will to have her life terminated under these circumstances.

During the time that she was slipping away into the never-never land of dementia, she expressed the wish to die; she even asked my older brother to make it happen. I have seen three relatives go from intelligent, active, life-loving people to dim shells of themselves. In the early stages, it is terrifying for them - they are aware of it and its inevitability. It's like being tied to the railroad tracks and watching the train approach.

I will work to make assisted suicide legal, including the aforementioned provision in a living will.

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05-02-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 07:56 AM)Zat Wrote:  "Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia are cruel diseases that progress over time and eventually will lead to death.

Alzheimer's disease is the seventh leading cause of death in the United States.


Late-Stage Dementia Symptoms

A person with dementia may follow a fairly predictable pattern of decline through the seven stages of dementia. Once dementia has progressed to late-stage, death can generally be expected in 6 months to 1 year.

Symptoms of late-stage dementia include:
    Increased incidence of infections, such as urinary tract infections or pneumonia
    Impaired motor functions including difficulty walking and moving, causing the individual to be bed- or chair-bound
    Incontinence of bowel and bladder leading to full dependence on others for toileting and hygiene
    Loss of the ability to communicate through words
    Difficulty swallowing and eating, leading to weight loss and aspiration pneumonia
    Loss of facial expression, including the ability to smile.
    Eventual inability to sit up or hold up one's head without assistance.

Death from Late-Stage Dementia

Many individuals with late-stage dementia die of a medical complication, such as pneumonia or another infection.
However, dementia itself can be fatal. General wasting, malnutrition, and dehydration are real risks when an individual with dementia can no longer eat safely and move independently."

=========================================

Would you like to live like this for 6 months to a year?

I know I would not. And, if it was my wife, I would do everything to help her get over this needless suffering -- we have a mutual understanding in this regard.

We would probably travel to Switzerland (a civilized country) where Euthanasia is legal, even for foreigners.
How do you explain the many people that do die from this but don't seek death by suicide? Also are you saying that people with dementia suffer from all of these at once, or they can have one or more?

Also wikipedia is not a good soutce of proof, they even tell you that themselves. Also dementia is not a specific diseases as stated in for proof.

Quote:Dementia is not a specific disease. It's an overall term that describes a wide range of symptoms associated
with a decline in memory or other thinking skills severe enough to
reduce a person's ability to perform everyday activities.
http://www.alz.org/what-is-dementia.asp
And you live in a civilized country.

Science investigates, religion interprets.

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05-02-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 08:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 07:41 AM)Scientia Wrote:  As I stated before, the exception doesn't make the rule.
What does that even mean?
You know what that phase mean.



Quote:But we are talking only about one specific kind of suicide here, so those studies are meaningless in this context.
Yes we are, and the problem it presents because sane people don't commit suicide. Those studies show that people who have committed suicide has suffered from some type of mental illness or defect.


Quote:Again, the studies are not applicable. Find a study about end-of-life decisions and then we can talk.
Yes they are and I've just told you why. What do you think this states use to help base their decision on?

Science investigates, religion interprets.

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05-02-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 08:49 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Laws are words on paper. They don't do anything. Only people do things.

So again, what or whom gives you or me the right to deprive an individual the disposal of his or her own property?

That's an important question because before you can argue the minutia you have to establish, legitimately, that you have the right of control over the property of others.
You're asking me this, when you live in a country, and abide by laws that are words on paper. That is hypocrisy

Science investigates, religion interprets.

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