Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
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05-02-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 08:56 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
Quote:Allowing people to be assisted in committing suicide to end their suffering would create a legal presumption of sanity.

If you want to die you're probably crazy. We can't tell whether any other reason you might have (terminal cancer, paralysis, gangrene, third degree burns to 90% of your body, etc) causes sufficient suffering for a sane person to end life. The law is such a blithering idiot that it can't differentiate between sarcoma and schizophrenia or between murder and suicide - so it must not be allowed to make life-and death decisions.
Besides, Big Omni knows, the only thing society needs more than angry, frustrated crazy people is very old ones who require hospital care for decades.

Seriously? You think the mentally ill get help if they don't try anything dramatic, but suffer quietly?
I worked in an hospital when I got out the Navy, and I saw a fair amount of illnesses. And out of the 3 yrs I worked there I only saw one person wish for death. He didn't say kill me, he said, "just let me die".

He was 85, he had 2 prior surgeries for the same problem, and this was going to be his 3rd. He was not in his right mind looking at his comments and actions, so they call his wife in who live in another nursing home. (I don't know why) And had to ask her what was his wishes, she said that he wanted to die. So I took him up onto the floor, and my next shift, I took him to the morgue in the basement of the hospital. All of the other people wanted to live, even the cancer patients.

And to correct you, the mentally ill get help minus the drama.

Science investigates, religion interprets.

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05-02-2013, 03:37 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 03:01 PM)Scientia Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 08:13 AM)Chas Wrote:  What does that even mean?
You know what that phase mean.



Quote:But we are talking only about one specific kind of suicide here, so those studies are meaningless in this context.
Yes we are, and the problem it presents because sane people don't commit suicide. Those studies show that people who have committed suicide has suffered from some type of mental illness or defect.


Quote:Again, the studies are not applicable. Find a study about end-of-life decisions and then we can talk.
Yes they are and I've just told you why. What do you think this states use to help base their decision on?
You completely miss the point.

The suicide of an otherwise healthy 35 or 45 year-old has nothing to do with this issue.

The issue is about someone suffering from a terminal illness and subsequent loss of quality of life.

I am legally sane and competent, capable of stating my intentions for my life should this situation arise. I should have the legal right to have those sane and rational intentions honored.



------
And if the expression you were looking for was "The exception proves the rule" the meaning of 'proves' in that statement is 'tests', not 'confirms'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-02-2013, 04:01 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2013 04:05 PM by Zat.)
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 02:51 PM)Scientia Wrote:  And you live in a civilized country.
Don't get me started on that! Weeping

An American journalist to Gandhi: "What do you think of Western Civilization ?"

Gandhi: "It could be a good idea".
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05-02-2013, 05:10 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 04:01 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 02:51 PM)Scientia Wrote:  And you live in a civilized country.
Don't get me started on that! Weeping

An American journalist to Gandhi: "What do you think of Western Civilization ?"

Gandhi: "It could be a good idea".
Civilized is subjective wouldn't you say? You know that we will always find something to whine about or call uncivilized no matter where we are at. And Gandhi is a poor choice since he believed in a cast system.

Science investigates, religion interprets.

I got my first like....[Image: weeping.gif] Thank you!
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05-02-2013, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2013 07:33 PM by Zat.)
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
I asked you not to get me started on that.

Here is a snapshot of your civilization:

1. Wars, all over the planet
2. Danger of nuclear, chemical, biological, space-based weapons (deployment or accident)
3. Environmental degradation
4. Massive levels of species extinction
5. Depletion and pollution of natural resources
6. Massive and unspeakable cruelty to animals on farms and in laboratories
7. Mass starvation on the planet
8. Epidemics and Pandemics at ever increasing rate
9. Climate change runaway threat and ongoing negative effects
10. Massive poverty, ostentatious gluttony, increasing desperation and crime
11. Fundamentalist Religion’s resurgence
12. Millions of young brainwashed and turned into neurotic wrecks
13. Whole generations dumbed down (surprise!)
14. Corporate stranglehold on politics and communication
15. Meaningless, farcical ‘democracy’
16. Torture practiced openly all over the planet.

However, this thread is about euthanasia and, from the number of posts contrary to yours, I guess you are a small minority here.

Most people, regardless of political/philosophical/ethical principles, do know that the time will come when they would want to end their suffering and they don't want you or anyone else to prevent it.

Bottom line here, I am afraid.
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05-02-2013, 05:45 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 05:10 PM)Scientia Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 04:01 PM)Zat Wrote:  Don't get me started on that! Weeping

An American journalist to Gandhi: "What do you think of Western Civilization ?"

Gandhi: "It could be a good idea".
Civilized is subjective wouldn't you say? You know that we will always find something to whine about or call uncivilized no matter where we are at. And Gandhi is a poor choice since he believed in a cast system.


Gandhi was instrumental in endeavouring to lessen the cast sytem, in particular the dalits, or so called untouchables.

As for assisted suicide for the aged terminal suffering; I see this as an act of compassion, despite some problems that safeguards would reduce. As for the strange sanity/just depressed dichotomy; who would not be depressed when in a terminal condition of acute pain, incontinence, hopelssness, and by the fact that they were destined to endure increasing misery for year upon year, for the want of a humane act.
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05-02-2013, 06:04 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 05:23 PM)Zat Wrote:  I asked you not to get me started on that.

Here is a snapshot of your civilization:

1. Wars, all over the planet

2. Danger of nuclear, chemical, biological, space-based weapons (deployment or accident)

3. Environmental degradation

4. Massive levels of species extinction

5. Depletion and pollution of natural resources

6. Massive and unspeakable cruelty to animals on farms and in laboratories

7. Mass starvation on the planet

8. Epidemics and Pandemics at ever increasing rate

9. Climate change runaway threat and ongoing negative effects

10. Massive poverty, ostentatious gluttony, increasing desperation and crime

11. Fundamentalist Religion’s resurgence

12. Millions of young brainwashed and turned into neurotic wrecks

13. Whole generations dumbed down (surprise!)

14. Corporate stranglehold on politics and communication

15. Meaningless, farcical ‘democracy’

16. Torture practiced openly all over the planet.
I'm glad you acknowledge that this rant is off topic.

Quote:However, this thread is about euthanasia and, from the number of posts contrary to yours, I guess you are a small minority here.
I knew that when I took the side I took, it is easy to preach to the choir.


Quote:Most
people, regardless of political/philosophical/ethical principles, do
know that the time will come when they would want to end their suffering
and they don't want you or anyone else to prevent it.
I feel the same as all of you do about the subject, but I said in the OP I was playing devil's advocate just to have opposition. If I said that no child should be raped and abused, who on here would disagree. None! Like I said, preaching to the choir gets boring some times.

Science investigates, religion interprets.

I got my first like....[Image: weeping.gif] Thank you!
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05-02-2013, 06:13 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 03:01 PM)Scientia Wrote:  You know what that phase mean.



Yes we are, and the problem it presents because sane people don't commit suicide. Those studies show that people who have committed suicide has suffered from some type of mental illness or defect.


Yes they are and I've just told you why. What do you think this states use to help base their decision on?
You completely miss the point.

The suicide of an otherwise healthy 35 or 45 year-old has nothing to do with this issue.

The issue is about someone suffering from a terminal illness and subsequent loss of quality of life.

I am legally sane and competent, capable of stating my intentions for my life should this situation arise. I should have the legal right to have those sane and rational intentions honored.



------
And if the expression you were looking for was "The exception proves the rule" the meaning of 'proves' in that statement is 'tests', not 'confirms'.
I know, many of you are the ones that are going off in all of these other tangents. The title of the thread is:Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized. This should frame the group of people who I'm talking about. It's about the people who want to die, due to suffering that want to use this as a means to end that suffering. I could care less about all of these other subjects that have nothing to do with this one simple singular argument.

Science investigates, religion interprets.

I got my first like....[Image: weeping.gif] Thank you!
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05-02-2013, 06:15 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 06:13 PM)Scientia Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  You completely miss the point.

The suicide of an otherwise healthy 35 or 45 year-old has nothing to do with this issue.

The issue is about someone suffering from a terminal illness and subsequent loss of quality of life.

I am legally sane and competent, capable of stating my intentions for my life should this situation arise. I should have the legal right to have those sane and rational intentions honored.



------
And if the expression you were looking for was "The exception proves the rule" the meaning of 'proves' in that statement is 'tests', not 'confirms'.
I know, many of you are the ones that are going off in all of these other tangents. The title of the thread is:Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized. This should frame the group of people who I'm talking about. It's about the people who want to die, due to suffering that want to use this as a means to end that suffering. I could care less about all of these other subjects that have nothing to do with this one simple singular argument.


You seem to be the one going off-topic. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-02-2013, 06:39 PM
RE: Why Assisted suicide should not be legalized
(05-02-2013 03:01 PM)Scientia Wrote:  Yes we are, and the problem it presents because sane people don't commit suicide. Those studies show that people who have committed suicide has suffered from some type of mental illness or defect.
"Sane" according to whom? From your statements, it sounds to me like (1) you have spent little or no time around the terminally ill, and (2) you are assuming that life is always better than death, and in some cases, it may not be. Quality of life and the person's wishes should be considered.

Quote: It's about the people who want to die, due to suffering that want to use this as a means to end that suffering
So you are saying people who have zero quality of life, and say so, and say they want to die, should be forced to endure suffering because you don't think a sane person EVER committed suicide? If you had read more research and books on the subject, you would find that many such subjects spend years thinking it over, going to Mexico or Switzerland or wherever to get pills to do it themselves, and so on. You seem to be saying that, even hypothetically, there is never a situation where it's ok to make your own decisions about your own life and death, which kind of seems like saying you don't own your own body or your own life.
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