Why Brexit is doomed.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-08-2017, 07:38 PM
Why Brexit is doomed.
I'm a Scottish voter living outside the UK so this concerns me. Although the press are portraying Brexit as a "done deal", what they don't report on is that there has been no discussion about the future makeup of the UK, particularly as it relates to Scotland.

The Scots have their own legislature and judiciary. The executive branch, the Queen, is now an irrelevance, having no power at all.

What is not mentioned in the press is that the Scottish judicial branch was given more autonomy in 2014 as part of David Cameron's attempts to appease Scottish nationalists. He made the Scottish criminal system completely automomous, other than in human rights issues but even here, Scots can bypass the UK courts by going to the European Court of Human Rights.

"The Court of Session is the supreme civil court of Scotland, subject to appeals to the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, and the High Court of Justiciary is the supreme criminal court, which is only subject to the authority of the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom on devolution issues and human rights compatibility issues." Wiki

In the Brexit vote Scots voted to remain in Europe while the English voted to leave. In the recent UK Supreme Court decision the court stated that the UK's power to negotiate treaties cannot be used to change domestic law. It would need the consent of the devolved Scottish legislature which is opposed to any change in its court structure, purely a domestic issue.

If Brexit were to proceed, Scotland would no longer have an appeal to the ECHR, making the Scottish courts totally independent of the UK Supreme Court and Parliament. But, the UK wants to pass replacement provisions for all the EU law which they will have to repeal and one of these laws relates to the jurisdiction of the ECHR.

The only way to do this is for the UK parliament, controlled by the English, to pass a piece of replacement legislation ensuring human rights previously in the ECHR and, at the same time, making the UK Supreme Court the final court of appeal, or telling Scotland to pass a replacement, which neither the Scottish government or people want.

So, it's an impasse. If Brexit goes ahead, the options are for the English majority in England to force the Scots to submit to English jurisdiction over one of its branches of government, or to allow that branch to become totally independent.

There's no way round this. What has happened over the last few weeks is that the UK government set up meetings in Scotland to discuss all this and at the last minute pulled out, because they have no plan to put to the Scots. This problem also applies to areas of legislation over which Scotland has exclusive jurisdiction subject only to EU directives. The UK has to replace these directives, or make Scotland bow down and pass the legislation itself, which it doesn't have to do.

If Scotland doesn't pass this legislation, then Scotland, in these areas becomes automomous. lol lol

The whole discussion by Brexiteers is a nonsense. They think that the referendum was like pushing a button and that by pressing it, everything just falls into place. It doesn't. After joining the EU, Scotland gained its own legislature. It's judicial system was never amalgamated into the UK judicial system and is unlike the UK legal system because it is an inquisitorial system based on French law, not English common law. The prosecutors in Scotland are like examining magistrates and control the courts and police. Police don't charge people with offences in Scotland, they only "report" offences to the prosecutors who can decide to impose penalties themselves and only refer some cases to the courts where there is a dispute or the charges are serious. In England, all offences are charged by the police and prosecutors are only there to present cases in court. It was only recently that the UK set up a prosecution service. Before that, the prosecutors were employed by the police or the police presented the cases themselves.

The problem is that few people understand that governments are made up of branches, legislative, executive and judicial. In the UK the executive branch is redundant so changing the roles and powers of the judiciary and legislature of Scotland when the Scots don't want to change, and certainly don't want to move towards being subject to an English dominated parliament, is a major constitutional problem.

Now the UK government is proposing a three year extension of membership in the EU...while they try to figure out WTF they are doing. What a joke.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like Deltabravo's post
13-08-2017, 08:35 PM
RE: Why Brexit is doomed.
Considering how complicated getting an amendment passed is in America it is weird that Brexit is supposed to really happen after a simple majority direct initiative. I don't know much about where the process is but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it never really happens.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-08-2017, 10:04 PM
RE: Why Brexit is doomed.
(13-08-2017 08:35 PM)ImFred Wrote:  Considering how complicated getting an amendment passed is in America it is weird that Brexit is supposed to really happen after a simple majority direct initiative. I don't know much about where the process is but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it never really happens.

Here's one of the first newpaper articles covering the constitutional impasse/mess that is now erupting: http://www.businessinsider.com/scottish-...bill2017-8

Scotland is refusing to sign the deal and accusing the UK government of a power grab.

Imagine if the US federal government tried to pass legislation in State areas of jurisdiction on the basis that they had entered into an international trade agreement, or cancelled it? It would be saying that the Feds can unilaterally change State laws.

This is just another example of the Brexit "bump" of last year where millions of uneducated people in the UK and USA thought that by voting once about something that they could completely change the way their government operated, regardless of the constitution of the government.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Deltabravo's post
14-08-2017, 10:46 PM
RE: Why Brexit is doomed.
If this happens, will the hound and the Baskervilles have to find new moors ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
15-08-2017, 07:37 AM
RE: Why Brexit is doomed.
(14-08-2017 10:04 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 08:35 PM)ImFred Wrote:  Considering how complicated getting an amendment passed is in America it is weird that Brexit is supposed to really happen after a simple majority direct initiative. I don't know much about where the process is but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it never really happens.

Here's one of the first newpaper articles covering the constitutional impasse/mess that is now erupting: http://www.businessinsider.com/scottish-...bill2017-8

Scotland is refusing to sign the deal and accusing the UK government of a power grab.

Imagine if the US federal government tried to pass legislation in State areas of jurisdiction on the basis that they had entered into an international trade agreement, or cancelled it? It would be saying that the Feds can unilaterally change State laws.

This is just another example of the Brexit "bump" of last year where millions of uneducated people in the UK and USA thought that by voting once about something that they could completely change the way their government operated, regardless of the constitution of the government.

I find support for Brexit here in the US mainly in the Libertarian and Conservative sides. They have a breathtakingly idiotic view of just how complex a process leaving the EU is (let alone if that even makes sense to do it). Some have told me that all the UK has to do is just leave, it is just that easy. They view this as "the people" taking back their country from the evil EU. They also love the idea of hardening the borders there, which brings us to the creation of our own little cesspool. Weeping

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes KidCharlemagne1962's post
15-08-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: Why Brexit is doomed.
(13-08-2017 07:38 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  So, it's an impasse. If Brexit goes ahead, the options are for the English majority in England to force the Scots to submit to English jurisdiction over one of its branches of government, or to allow that branch to become totally independent.

Well, I'm just an ignorant American, but it seems to me that it's time to break out the claymores and the bagpipes, and send the English packing for good and all.

I look forward to another Stuart sitting on the throne, so that Traquair House can finally reopen the Bear Gates, and ship their fabulous brew out the front of the estate again.

Suas Stiubhart!

Yes

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-08-2017, 04:57 PM
RE: Why Brexit is doomed.
(14-08-2017 10:04 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Imagine if the US federal government tried to pass legislation in State areas of jurisdiction on the basis that they had entered into an international trade agreement, or cancelled it? It would be saying that the Feds can unilaterally change State laws.

The preeminence of Federal law over state law has long been a feature of American governance. The Feds cannot pass state laws, but they can and do override them when there is a discrepancy. This is a process the Supreme Court has upheld.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thumpalumpacus's post
16-08-2017, 01:34 PM
RE: Why Brexit is doomed.
(15-08-2017 04:57 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  The preeminence of Federal law over state law has long been a feature of American governance. The Feds cannot pass state laws, but they can and do override them when there is a discrepancy. This is a process the Supreme Court has upheld.

Sometimes.

We're waiting to see what's going to happen with marijuana right now, for example. Legal in my state for both medical and recreational use, and creating it's own minor economic boom. Yet still an illegal Schedule I "narcotic" under federal law. We're not the only state in this position, and sooner or later this issue is going to hit the fan.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dr H's post
17-08-2017, 02:02 AM
RE: Why Brexit is doomed.
Interesting, thank you!

Wow, Brexit is even more stupid than I thought. I'm in England, and I honestly thought, right up until the last moment, that enough people would have enough sense to vote this out.

It's also important to note that the referendum was not legally binding. It was advisory. It was irresponsible of the government to proceed with this crap, while clearly having no plan in place at all. This whole thing is an embarrassment, and if England insists on sinking itself, Scotland certainly shouldn't be forced to go down with it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Robvalue's post
18-08-2017, 01:29 AM
RE: Why Brexit is doomed.
(15-08-2017 04:57 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(14-08-2017 10:04 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Imagine if the US federal government tried to pass legislation in State areas of jurisdiction on the basis that they had entered into an international trade agreement, or cancelled it? It would be saying that the Feds can unilaterally change State laws.

The preeminence of Federal law over state law has long been a feature of American governance. The Feds cannot pass state laws, but they can and do override them when there is a discrepancy. This is a process the Supreme Court has upheld.

Yes, the UK is not a federal system and the Scottish government was created by a UK act called the Scotland Act which allows the UK government to pass legislation in all areas that Scotland can. The UK government can suspend the whole Scottish government and have done this in Northern Ireland which is now ruled from London: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/o...ernireland

David Cameron fought against the Scottish independence movement by giving them them more power, but the Brexit vote means that the UK government is now saying it can just impose whatever laws they like on Scotland to ensure that Brexit goes through, even though both the Scottish parliament and the people of Scotland are against it. So you get an English majority imposing their will over the majority of Scots and their own government.

It would be like the USA entering into a treaty which required that the whole US abolish capital punishment. It could not be done without every state agreeing. It can't happen but it can in the UK because, having given Scotland more power, it is an illusion and Westminster can simply override Scotland.

This is just one aspect of the problem of Brexit which is now being reported in the UK which stems from the fact that the government simply does not understand the complexity of the legal and constitutional issues they have to deal with.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Deltabravo's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: