Why Christianity is the most popular religion
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29-05-2012, 06:47 PM
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
(29-05-2012 03:42 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-05-2012 05:55 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  And just in case you are asking that you might question my statement that not all that is called "christian" is actually Christian, that is based upon the teaching of scripture.
Unless you defend the point of view that everything in the Bible is meant to be taken literally, you cannot judge people based upon it's teachings. That's because you can't define the "teaching of the scripture" when it's not even clear which parts are supposed to be read literally and which parts are meant to be metaphors.

I do not take the position that everything in scripture is to be taken literally. We see examples of sarcasm, hyperbole, symbolism, metaphor...the question is, determining what is to be taken literally.


Quote:"when it's not even clear which parts are supposed to be read literally and which parts are meant to be metaphors."


On the contrary, 99% of scripture is clear as to it's literal intent. The other 1% is what theologians like to debate over...lol.

If you have scripture you would like to present to question whether it is to be taken literally or not, such as...



Revelation 19:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



...for example, I would be happy to look at them with you. It really is not that difficult.

God bless.
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29-05-2012, 06:51 PM
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
(28-05-2012 08:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2012 06:21 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  Jesus could have done those things, just as He could have lied, stolen, committed fornication, et cetera, except for one thing: God cannot violate His Holy nature.

What He did do is ... die in my place.


The development of the concept that Yeshua was a divine being was a long, and complex one. Each of the gospels exhibits different concepts of "divinity", and when Yeshua assumed his divine status. "Son of god" did not mean "divine". If Yeshua had claimed divinty, (which he did not), he would have been stoned, on the spot. The "die in your place" stuff, (the salvation paradigm), was grafted later, after Paul added it, (after his fighting with James about it), and was not part of the original newly forming cult. Mark, written first, does not mention "salvation". Paul, written next, has evidence of it. Paul got it from the Greek Mystery cults. Where did you study Archaeology, and Biblical Form Criticism ?

While there are certain cults and anti-biblical based agendas that would have you to believe this, scripture is clear that God manifest in the flesh.
We know Him as Jesus the Christ. This is very clear in scripture for those willing to look at it.

God bless.
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29-05-2012, 06:53 PM
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
(28-05-2012 08:18 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(28-05-2012 06:21 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  What He did do is this: die in your place.

Ain't nobody dying in my place. Tongue

That concept is asinine, wrong, and non-scriptural. So there. Tongue

Sorry, but the only choice you have is to reject or accept, you do not have the power to decide whether Jesus will or will not die for you.
And...I'm going to resist the urge to return the raspberry.
lol
God bless.
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29-05-2012, 07:18 PM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2012 07:30 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
(29-05-2012 06:00 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  
(29-05-2012 04:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Wishing that someone would die in my place would make me a pussy. Wishing that someone would die for my sins would make me an irresponsible pussy. "No you can't have them. They're my sins and I worked hard to get them. Get your own. Go terrorize a temple or something."

Sounds like just another pathetic attempt to keep Girly the Barbarian out of Valhalla.

No wishing needed there, big guy...lol. ... But, as I said, no wishing needed...it is a done deal.

Bah big fella, I don't reject God, I couldn't give less of a shit about God. But if you're gonna base your faith on some sort of bullshit promise of a postmortem preservation of identity, you ought to at least do due diligence and make sure there's some sorta mechanism of action in place where that is at least conceivable and imaginable. After that, it will have to pass further scrutiny of whether the MOA is plausible and tenable. Personally, I have yet to find an MOA which is even imaginable. ... Now if you want to come at me with a metaphysics where "You're temporary, I'm temporary, we're all temporary, everything is temporary. Goddam boy, just grow a sack and deal with it.", I'm all ears. Wink


(29-05-2012 06:53 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  Sorry, but the only choice you have is to reject or accept, you do not have the power to decide whether Jesus will or will not die for you.

Utter and complete nonsense. I read the Red Letters regularly for inspiration and direction. I accept the Golden Rule as the only rule. Jesus never said he died for me. But Jesus did tell me that I am divine and we collectively are God. I'd wager that this atheist lives a life much closer to that of the Christ than most Christians. ... I mean how can they, they've been taught to be afraid of their own shadows.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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29-05-2012, 07:29 PM
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
merged

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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29-05-2012, 07:31 PM
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
(29-05-2012 06:40 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  
(28-05-2012 07:42 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Religions evolve through selection processes. Suicide cults tend to end early! Cults that are overly restrictive on people's lifestyles never reach widespread societal acceptance. Religions mould society, but also and perhaps to a greater degree societies mould religious practice.

Again, with the aforementioned groups, we can see that their doctrine teaches a works-based religion, the term "works-based" actually qualifies the group as religion. Take Islam, also, as an example. Would you consider this religion to be "overly-restrictive?"

I'm told this is the fastest growing religion in the world, and I personally see Islam as the greatest threat this world has ever seen concerning not only religious groups...but in general.

I would see moderate Islam as being about as socialised as moderate Christianity. It's extremes seem more extreme right now and perhaps more prevalent. It is also settling into new societies in a way that many members of western islamic congregations are either first or second generation immigrants in the West. This differs from Christianity in the West where most church members are likely to be many generations more integrated into the society. I think that introduces cultural opportunities, but also some short term risks due to the lesser integration.

(29-05-2012 06:40 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  
(28-05-2012 07:42 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  I've been there brother, I understand.

Been where? You were a born again believer?

Good. Love to talk to you in more detail. If this is what is meant, can I ask what denomination you were a part of? I ask because I am a believer in the "impact" doctrine has upon those that believe they are saved (no pun intended).

I have been a member of Baptist, Church of Christ, and Christian and Missionary Alliance churches over my lifetime.

from earlier in the thread:
(28-05-2012 05:55 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  And just in case you are asking that you might question my statement that not all that is called "christian" is actually Christian, that is based upon the teaching of scripture.

"You shall know them by their fruit." This is a familiar teaching in scripture, in the Old and New Testament. It is just basic knowledge, a teaching that is intended, even as the creattion of the Nation of Israel was, as a means to separate those that belong to God from those that do not. Counterfeit believers are prophecied in scripture, and we are told to have discernment in this matter.

(29-05-2012 06:40 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  
(28-05-2012 07:42 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  I suggest that the average Christian earnestly believes both that they are more spiritually aware than the average,

First I would have to ask, "The average what?" I assume you meant "The super spiritual Christians," those that think they are better than other Christians.

But can I suggest that this is actually commanded...against, in scripture. Those that do this, elevate themselves above their brothers and sisters, are sinning against God. If you are an athist this will mean little to you, but for the believer, this is a serious issue. Christ is to be our example, and while the process of being conformed to the image of Christ can be a very lengthy (and in fact a lifetime work) process, this is the work that God seeks to do in the individuals life. Learning to yield to His guidance is a difficult process.

(28-05-2012 07:42 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  and that anyone who is not as spiritually aware as they are is not really a "true" Christian.

This is pride.

However, I will still say that as the parable of the soils teaches, it is more likely that those that fall away were never born again to begin with. Those that are born again and fal into sin will face being chastized and even physical death.

God take's His name seriously, and those that say they are representatives of His...better be.

What I mean was the average Christian. I meant that in any group, Christians included, one has a tendency to think oneself to be just a little above the average. From that vantage point it is easy to identify anyone who does a little less bible study than you, or participates in a fewer church activities as simply playing along - perhaps not even a "true" Christian. It's easy to scan the congregation and think "I'll know them by their fruits". It's easy to watch a news report about a Christian doing something that you would never do and say to yourself "They're not a true Christian. If they had only followed the example of Jesus they would have done...". When someone falls away from the faith you're sure it isn't for a good reason, because you can't see a good reason. Instead, they must either have fallen into sin or must have never been a true Christian in the first place. It's easy to imagine that you understand the internal world of another.

(29-05-2012 06:40 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  
(28-05-2012 07:42 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  I think this is a foundation of the no true Scotsman fallacy, and something we should all be careful with.

Not sure about this fallacy, never heard of it. Perhaps it is mentioned in a post I haven't gotten to yet?

It's the idea that you can classify people who self-identify as a particular thing are not really that thing, primarily because they seem like they are less committed to that thing than we are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman



Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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30-05-2012, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2012 08:26 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
(29-05-2012 06:47 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  I do not take the position that everything in scripture is to be taken literally. We see examples of sarcasm, hyperbole, symbolism, metaphor...the question is, determining what is to be taken literally.
All you do is raising further questions. Who is supposed to determine what is to be taken literally? Can you think of a single person that is (from a religious point of view) allowed to change anything at the Word of God? (Revelation 22, 18-19)

Quote:On the contrary, 99% of scripture is clear as to it's literal intent. The other 1% is what theologians like to debate over...lol.
Would you care to elaborate and provide evidence for your claims?

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30-05-2012, 01:13 PM
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
Could you provide the clear literal intent behind the fact that OT laws are clearly stated to be eternal and unchanging and suddenly 'cos some dude got nailed to a bit of wood you don't have to kill people for working on the Sabbath any more (BTW Sabbath = 10 commandment law, pretty damn important, so why people work on a Saturday? They *changed God's Law*!!!!!!! <- multiple exclamation marks, a sign of genius!!!!)
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30-05-2012, 01:40 PM
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
(30-05-2012 08:16 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(29-05-2012 06:47 PM)S.T. Ranger Wrote:  I do not take the position that everything in scripture is to be taken literally. We see examples of sarcasm, hyperbole, symbolism, metaphor...the question is, determining what is to be taken literally.
All you do is raising further questions. Who is supposed to determine what is to be taken literally? Can you think of a single person that is (from a religious point of view) allowed to change anything at the Word of God? (Revelation 22, 18-19)

ST disagrees with me, but the determining factors in what is supposed to be taken literally are many. Context, history, and linguistic communication types are big factors

Quote:On the contrary, 99% of scripture is clear as to it's literal intent. The other 1% is what theologians like to debate over...lol.
Would you care to elaborate and provide evidence for your claims?

Going to have to disagree here. According to my understanding, the places that are for sure not literal are Genesis 1-3 as well as Revelation. As I continue to study, this may increase. As of right now, this is my understanding.

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30-05-2012, 01:45 PM
RE: Why Christianity is the most popular religion
Hey, Morondog.

A bit of a digression perhaps, but in Canada there was a law called the Lord's Day Act that made Sunday (Sabbath) shopping illegal. It survived a Supreme Court challenge in 1982 but after the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was introduced later in 1982, it wound up being struck down as a Charter violation in 1985. Nova Scotia resisted this ruling ostensibly until 2006, having introduced limited Sunday shopping before then but allowing full Sunday shopping after a 2006 Nova Scotia Supreme Court ruling. So clearly, in Canada at least, Christians didn't "change God's law" to allow Sunday shopping, a secular rights Charter (which is totally awesome by the way) forced the elimination of laws that made it illegal because the laws themselves were deemed illegal.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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