Why Conspiracies are stupid.
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16-11-2016, 07:11 AM
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 03:11 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(15-11-2016 10:29 PM)Aliza Wrote:  A nation (from Latin: natio, "people, tribe, kin, genus, class, flock") is a large group or collective of people with common characteristics attributed to them including language, traditions, mores (customs), habitus (habits), and ethnicity. By comparison, a nation is more impersonal, abstract, and overtly political than an ethnic group. It is a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its autonomy, unity, and particular interests.

A nation doesn’t require a common land, though common land can be a factor in defining a nation.

The Jewish people were forced from their home country some 2,000 years ago and lived as refugees in other countries for that time (and still do). They did not assimilate into their host cultures, but rather, retained their own culture, traditions, cuisine, language and religion.


Actually, you would be wrong.

An American is defined as someone who was born in the United States, or who went through the process of becoming a citizen. In either case, the individual qualifies to carry a US passport.

There is no “American race” to define who is or isn’t American. Likewise, Judaism is made up of people from many different races, and a person from any race may choose to join. It is not a religion in the traditional sense because its membership doesn’t require a particular faith system. A person who is culturally Jewish but not necessarily Jewish by practice is still a Jew in the same sense that an American citizen living in Peru is still an American.

There is a Jewish nationality, and the Jewish people have held to the definition of what it is to be a Jew for thousands of years. The most qualified people to define what it is to be a Jew are the Jews (as a whole), not you. Yes, you may say anything you wish, but if you mean to speak with any authority, you should strive to educate yourself. Here is a good place to get started with that education.

Now this might sound absurd to you, but wouldn't it be highly likely that the Palestinians are the ones descended from the ancient jews? How would you describe their position?
"The ones?" Could they not both be if you're thinking that?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-11-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 05:39 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-11-2016 03:11 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Now this might sound absurd to you, but wouldn't it be highly likely that the Palestinians are the ones descended from the ancient jews? How would you describe their position?

They're Syrian. We can have a separate discussion about that if you like.

They the Palestinians, the Syrians the Arabs all Semitic and even if the followers of the Jewish religion by some happenstance do share some genetic similarities to these Semites after nearly two thousand years dispersed across Europe then they are all Semitic still and Judaism is still no more than a religion. For is it not said that to show bigotry towards Jews is to be anti-semitic?

If Palestinians were Syrian they would be called Syrians. But they aren't called that because to be a Syrian or to be a Palestinian is determined by imaginary little lines that make up the borders of countries that divide humanity from each other on the falsehood of nationality.

Perhaps some Jews are Semitic in the same sense that Some Christians are Caucasians and others are African. But the imaginary lines that make up countries have no basis in reality for what constitutes a race.

To call a Palestinian a Syrian... might as well call Americans Germans, or British, or Irish, or Italian, or French, or Spanish, or Latino, or African actually you can do that because you are right, there is no such thing as an American race (apart from the Native Americans)

In the same sense, you can call a Jew a Romanian Jew, a German Jew, a Spanish Jew, A Polish Jew, A Moroccan Jew, A Russian Jew. Because there is no such thing as a Jewish Race just as there is no such thing as a Christian or a Buddhist, or an Islamic Race.

But because Judaism is an ideology that supersedes the idea of race to shared cultural values just like the Romans did with Romanized Britains, Romanized Germans, Romanized Gauls, Romano Iberians. Because its more than just a race it is a religion an ideology a belief.

The only reason there was a push to consider Judaism as a race was to facilitate the creation of the state of Israel and to give it legitimacy at an international level. Otherwise it would have just been another Crusade another Jihad. There is a name for this Crusade and it is called Zionism.

That is also why one can still be Culturally Jewish. Do you know what a means to be a Jew Aliza? Because you certainly didn't now what it means to be a Palestinian. I do not support bigotry and I do not support Apartheid, and I certainly don't support Fascism in any way shape or form. Israel is all of that and then to make matters worse the Israeli prime minister tries to speak for all Jews. It is infuriating because it causes so much confusion and many people upon seeing the terrorist activities of the state of israel and speak out against it lash out at Jews who have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT because Israel presents itself as a Jewish state while at the same time the state of Israel invokes fear and ignorance into their citizens in a cruel and tragic repeat in history. To witness Jews treating the Palestinians the same way they were treated in Nazi Germany. That is truly tragic.

And I call the state of Israel fascist with every right, I am German and an Italian and I know my own history. And I will not BUCKLE IN FEAR at being called an Anti-Semite because I have nothing against Jews I love the rich culture Jews have as I would love any other culture or religion. But I refuse to equate Israel with Judaism because it is supposed to be a democracy. And if you want to say that Israel isn't a fascist state there are so many videos on YouTube with recorded evidence of the violence Israel is committing against the Palestinians. So many news articles.

Do you really want to go down that route? Are you an Israeli? Because if you are I have a question indeed. How could you let this happen?

(16-11-2016 07:11 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(16-11-2016 03:11 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Now this might sound absurd to you, but wouldn't it be highly likely that the Palestinians are the ones descended from the ancient jews? How would you describe their position?
"The ones?" Could they not both be if you're thinking that?

If they both are which some may be yes, then it remains the same, that Judaism is nothing more than a religion.
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16-11-2016, 08:01 AM
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 07:58 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(16-11-2016 05:39 AM)Aliza Wrote:  They're Syrian. We can have a separate discussion about that if you like.

They the Palestinians, the Syrians the Arabs all Semitic and even if the followers of the Jewish religion by some happenstance do share some genetic similarities to these Semites after nearly two thousand years dispersed across Europe then they are all Semitic still and Judaism is still no more than a religion. For is it not said that to show bigotry towards Jews is to be anti-semitic?

If Palestinians were Syrian they would be called Syrians. But they aren't called that because to be a Syrian or to be a Palestinian is determined by imaginary little lines that make up the borders of countries that divide humanity from each other on the falsehood of nationality.

Perhaps some Jews are Semitic in the same sense that Some Christians are Caucasians and others are African. But the imaginary lines that make up countries have no basis in reality for what constitutes a race.

To call a Palestinian a Syrian... might as well call Americans Germans, or British, or Irish, or Italian, or French, or Spanish, or Latino, or African actually you can do that because you are right, there is no such thing as an American race (apart from the Native Americans)

In the same sense, you can call a Jew a Romanian Jew, a German Jew, a Spanish Jew, A Polish Jew, A Moroccan Jew, A Russian Jew. Because there is no such thing as a Jewish Race just as there is no such thing as a Christian or a Buddhist, or an Islamic Race.

But because Judaism is an ideology that supersedes the idea of race to shared cultural values just like the Romans did with Romanized Britains, Romanized Germans, Romanized Gauls, Romano Iberians. Because its more than just a race it is a religion an ideology a belief.

The only reason there was a push to consider Judaism as a race was to facilitate the creation of the state of Israel and to give it legitimacy at an international level. Otherwise it would have just been another Crusade another Jihad. There is a name for this Crusade and it is called Zionism.

That is also why one can still be Culturally Jewish. Do you know what a means to be a Jew Aliza? Because you certainly didn't now what it means to be a Palestinian. I do not support bigotry and I do not support Apartheid, and I certainly don't support Fascism in any way shape or form. Israel is all of that and then to make matters worse the Israeli prime minister tries to speak for all Jews. It is infuriating because it causes so much confusion and many people upon seeing the terrorist activities of the state of israel and speak out against it lash out at Jews who have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT because Israel presents itself as a Jewish state while at the same time the state of Israel invokes fear and ignorance into their citizens in a cruel and tragic repeat in history. To witness Jews treating the Palestinians the same way they were treated in Nazi Germany. That is truly tragic.

And I call the state of Israel fascist with every right, I am German and an Italian and I know my own history. And I will not BUCKLE IN FEAR at being called an Anti-Semite because I have nothing against Jews I love the rich culture Jews have as I would love any other culture or religion. But I refuse to equate Israel with Judaism because it is supposed to be a democracy. And if you want to say that Israel isn't a fascist state there are so many videos on YouTube with recorded evidence of the violence Israel is committing against the Palestinians. So many news articles.

Do you really want to go down that route? Are you an Israeli? Because if you are I have a question indeed. How could you let this happen?

Baby steps. First learn what defines a Jew, and then maybe we can get into a deeper conversation.
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16-11-2016, 08:03 AM
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 08:01 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-11-2016 07:58 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  They the Palestinians, the Syrians the Arabs all Semitic and even if the followers of the Jewish religion by some happenstance do share some genetic similarities to these Semites after nearly two thousand years dispersed across Europe then they are all Semitic still and Judaism is still no more than a religion. For is it not said that to show bigotry towards Jews is to be anti-semitic?

If Palestinians were Syrian they would be called Syrians. But they aren't called that because to be a Syrian or to be a Palestinian is determined by imaginary little lines that make up the borders of countries that divide humanity from each other on the falsehood of nationality.

Perhaps some Jews are Semitic in the same sense that Some Christians are Caucasians and others are African. But the imaginary lines that make up countries have no basis in reality for what constitutes a race.

To call a Palestinian a Syrian... might as well call Americans Germans, or British, or Irish, or Italian, or French, or Spanish, or Latino, or African actually you can do that because you are right, there is no such thing as an American race (apart from the Native Americans)

In the same sense, you can call a Jew a Romanian Jew, a German Jew, a Spanish Jew, A Polish Jew, A Moroccan Jew, A Russian Jew. Because there is no such thing as a Jewish Race just as there is no such thing as a Christian or a Buddhist, or an Islamic Race.

But because Judaism is an ideology that supersedes the idea of race to shared cultural values just like the Romans did with Romanized Britains, Romanized Germans, Romanized Gauls, Romano Iberians. Because its more than just a race it is a religion an ideology a belief.

The only reason there was a push to consider Judaism as a race was to facilitate the creation of the state of Israel and to give it legitimacy at an international level. Otherwise it would have just been another Crusade another Jihad. There is a name for this Crusade and it is called Zionism.

That is also why one can still be Culturally Jewish. Do you know what a means to be a Jew Aliza? Because you certainly didn't now what it means to be a Palestinian. I do not support bigotry and I do not support Apartheid, and I certainly don't support Fascism in any way shape or form. Israel is all of that and then to make matters worse the Israeli prime minister tries to speak for all Jews. It is infuriating because it causes so much confusion and many people upon seeing the terrorist activities of the state of israel and speak out against it lash out at Jews who have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT because Israel presents itself as a Jewish state while at the same time the state of Israel invokes fear and ignorance into their citizens in a cruel and tragic repeat in history. To witness Jews treating the Palestinians the same way they were treated in Nazi Germany. That is truly tragic.

And I call the state of Israel fascist with every right, I am German and an Italian and I know my own history. And I will not BUCKLE IN FEAR at being called an Anti-Semite because I have nothing against Jews I love the rich culture Jews have as I would love any other culture or religion. But I refuse to equate Israel with Judaism because it is supposed to be a democracy. And if you want to say that Israel isn't a fascist state there are so many videos on YouTube with recorded evidence of the violence Israel is committing against the Palestinians. So many news articles.

Do you really want to go down that route? Are you an Israeli? Because if you are I have a question indeed. How could you let this happen?

Baby steps. First learn what defines a Jew, and then maybe we can get into a deeper conversation.

Okay what would you define a Jew as?
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16-11-2016, 08:18 AM
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 08:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(16-11-2016 08:01 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Baby steps. First learn what defines a Jew, and then maybe we can get into a deeper conversation.

Okay what would you define a Jew as?

A Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or someone who converts to Judaism through a formal conversion process. If the person was born into Judaism, their mother must be from a Jewish culture herself. For Jews (and probably also anthropologists) to recognize the culture as a valid Jewish culture, there must have an unbroken chain of tradition, culture, language, and religion dating back to the original Jews from thousands of years ago.
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16-11-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 07:58 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Do you really want to go down that route? Are you an Israeli? Because if you are I have a question indeed. How could you let this happen?

You compare the establishment of Israel with the Holocaust and burden the current Israeli people with the guilt of your accusation.

What nationality do you claim? Are you accountable for the actions of your nation? Especially ones that happen before you were born?

Should an American born in the 1960's be accountable for Hiroshima? or the Westward Expansion?

Should a Brit born in the 1980's be accountable for the actions of the British Empire in the 1700's?

Should a German born in the 1980's be accountable for the Holocaust and the crimes of the Nazi's?

What is your justification for holding someone accountable for actions committed by other people before their birth?

Sounds like the doctrine of Original Sin.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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16-11-2016, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2016 08:39 AM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 08:18 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-11-2016 08:03 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Okay what would you define a Jew as?

A Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother or someone who converts to Judaism through a formal conversion process. If the person was born into Judaism, their mother must be from a Jewish culture herself. For Jews (and probably also anthropologists) to recognize the culture as a valid Jewish culture, there must have an unbroken chain of tradition, culture, language, and religion dating back to the original Jews from thousands of years ago.

There is no way on high heaven or hell that someone is going to be able to recall their ancestry for over 2,000 years. Also a woman could just convert to Judaism accept the culture and have children and her children would be considered Jewish no matter what. Yiddish was also the language a lot of Jews spoke before the revival of Hebrew.

You didn't define Jews as a race but as a culture, which is how I also defined Judaism.

(16-11-2016 08:22 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(16-11-2016 07:58 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Do you really want to go down that route? Are you an Israeli? Because if you are I have a question indeed. How could you let this happen?

You compare the establishment of Israel with the Holocaust and burden the current Israeli people with the guilt of your accusation.

What nationality do you claim? Are you accountable for the actions of your nation? Especially ones that happen before you were born?

Should an American born in the 1960's be accountable for Hiroshima? or the Westward Expansion?

Should a Brit born in the 1980's be accountable for the actions of the British Empire in the 1700's?

Should a German born in the 1980's be accountable for the Holocaust and the crimes of the Nazi's?

What is your justification for holding someone accountable for actions committed by other people before their birth?

Sounds like the doctrine of Original Sin.

The crimes being committed in Israel are happening right now as we speak so long as that wall of apartheid stands it only stands for injustice, so long as it stands it is the physical embodiment of fascism, fear, hatred, irrationality, ignorance, and murder.

Aliza when she stated that Palestinians were Syrians showed her own ignorance and I had to rectify that. bout as bad as calling them Arabic settlers

The question is not should I be held responsible for the actions of my ancestors, its what can I do to make sure such things never happen again?
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16-11-2016, 08:37 AM
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 08:34 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Aliza when she stated that Palestinians were Syrians showed her own ignorance and I had to rectify that. bout as bad as calling them Arabic settlers.

Or as bad as equating the definitions of conspiracy and conspiracy theory.

You aren't going to start on the Zionist Conspiracy to Take Over the World are you?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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16-11-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 08:37 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(16-11-2016 08:34 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Aliza when she stated that Palestinians were Syrians showed her own ignorance and I had to rectify that. bout as bad as calling them Arabic settlers.

Or as bad as equating the definitions of conspiracy and conspiracy theory.

You aren't going to start on the Zionist Conspiracy to Take Over the World are you?

You clearly don't know the definition of Zionism.
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16-11-2016, 08:47 AM
RE: Why Conspiracies are stupid.
(16-11-2016 08:40 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(16-11-2016 08:37 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Or as bad as equating the definitions of conspiracy and conspiracy theory.

You aren't going to start on the Zionist Conspiracy to Take Over the World are you?

You clearly don't know the definition of Zionism.

You mean "your" definition. I've seen your methods.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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