Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
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22-11-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 11:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:20 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Maybe they saw Germany as bigger threat? Or maybe seeing as Poland already lost they simply don't cared? After all they didn't do much to help Poland with German attack.

There's not much anyone COULD have done.....


If allies were capable of dropping leaflets then I suppose bombs too weren't out of the question.

Quote: Nobody had as good as weaponry as the Germans -- and it was right in Adolph's backyard, so to speak.....


Except for Soviets(irrelevant at this point) and Frenchman. [Freance superiority in this department can be looked into it: "The Blitzkrieg Legend: The 1940 Campaign in the West" by Karl-Heinz Frieser].

France also wasn't far from Germany.

Quote: Logistics simply made it impossible for the Allies to do anything...

More like a politic.

Frenchmen didn't want to die for Danzig. History showed that they didn't want to die for Paris too.

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22-11-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 11:28 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  There's not much anyone COULD have done..... Nobody had as good as weaponry as the Germans -- and it was right in Adolph's backyard, so to speak..... Logistics simply made it impossible for the Allies to do anything...

Yep. Also Poland was not considered a line in the sand. In fact the declaration of war against Germany after Poland was mere symbolism.

As for USSR, I suspect they "connived with Germany" in Poland to win some trust from Hitler and save themselves from becoming a target of the Germans.

Poland was the USSR's Vietnam.... --- as France would be the USA's Germany.....

.....

Somebody agreed to help fight a war -- and thought it'd never happen....

.......................................

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22-11-2016, 11:33 AM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 11:12 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Blitzkrieg

... which failed two years later even when practiced by its master proponents. Also, this flip answer of your ignores the fact that neither the French nor the British had the force-structure to practice Blitzkrieg; nor did they have a sound doctrine governing the air-support which Blitzkrieg requires; nor did they have the training to practice it in 1939.

(22-11-2016 11:12 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  And they would have had a lot more support for going to war with the Soviet Union.

According to whom? Please support this claim.
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22-11-2016, 11:37 AM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 11:33 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:12 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Blitzkrieg

... which failed two years later even when practiced by its master proponents. Also, this flip answer of your ignores the fact that neither the French nor the British had the force-structure to practice Blitzkrieg; nor did they have a sound doctrine governing the air-support which Blitzkrieg requires; nor did they have the training to practice it in 1939.

(22-11-2016 11:12 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  And they would have had a lot more support for going to war with the Soviet Union.

According to whom? Please support this claim.

My dearest Thumpalumpacus, there's a reason why the Nazis had so many sympathizers.

(22-11-2016 11:32 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:28 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Yep. Also Poland was not considered a line in the sand. In fact the declaration of war against Germany after Poland was mere symbolism.

As for USSR, I suspect they "connived with Germany" in Poland to win some trust from Hitler and save themselves from becoming a target of the Germans.

Poland was the USSR's Vietnam.... --- as France would be the USA's Germany.....

.....

Somebody agreed to help fight a war -- and thought it'd never happen....

I like this answer.
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22-11-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 11:29 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  The British declared war on Iran and Iraq and conquered them too. If they could conquer such distant nations they could have done the same with the Soviet Union.

Did you really just compare 1930's Iran and Iraq with the Soviet Union of that same era?

Really?

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22-11-2016, 12:07 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 12:02 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:29 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  The British declared war on Iran and Iraq and conquered them too. If they could conquer such distant nations they could have done the same with the Soviet Union.

Did you really just compare 1930's Iran and Iraq with the Soviet Union of that same era?

Really?

We were talking about logistics so yes.

Furthermore the British even were thinking about going to war with the Soviet Union after WWII called operation unthinkable.
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22-11-2016, 12:09 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 11:28 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  There's not much anyone COULD have done..... Nobody had as good as weaponry as the Germans -- and it was right in Adolph's backyard, so to speak..... Logistics simply made it impossible for the Allies to do anything...

Yep. Also Poland was not considered a line in the sand.


Wasn't it? I would say that Poland was last straw.

Quote: In fact the declaration of war against Germany after Poland was mere symbolism.


It could have been more. Allies were hardly unarmed. Problem was in lack of will I think.

Quote: As for USSR, I suspect they "connived with Germany" in Poland to win some trust from Hitler and save themselves from becoming a target of the Germans.

Allies hardly were going to get trust from Hitler after declaring war on him.

Or if you speak about USSR then I wouldn't say that there was much trust on both side of the pact. Ideological differences and conflicting interests made that impossible for long term.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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22-11-2016, 12:16 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 11:37 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
Quote:According to whom? Please support this claim.

My dearest Thumpalumpacus, there's a reason why the Nazis had so many sympathizers.

I'm afraid you're misunderstanding me. I'm asking you to support your claim, not avoid the question. I'll give you credit, though, that was somewhat creative.

Anyway -- please link to a reputable source for your claim that had the French and British somehow managed to defeat Germany and still have enough remaining strength to defeat the USSR, they would have received support from an outside, unnamed nation.

Also, while I've got you on the line, the British never declared war upon Iran, nor did they conduct combat operations therein. The US and the UK in 1942 did force Reza Shah Pahlevi to accept the presence of Allied troops to safeguard the railway used to supply the USSR, but no war was declared or conducted. I'd suggest you learn the subject matter before pontificating on it.
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22-11-2016, 12:20 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 12:07 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 12:02 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Did you really just compare 1930's Iran and Iraq with the Soviet Union of that same era?

Really?

We were talking about logistics so yes.

There is no comparison. Neither Iran nor Iraq was a world power at that time. Both Britain and the Soviets were powers in the region.

Hitler was threatening all of Europe. Stalin was a separated by distance and Germany. Why declare war on an enemy that you can't attack and who can't attack you?

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22-11-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 12:09 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:28 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Yep. Also Poland was not considered a line in the sand.


Wasn't it? I would say that Poland was last straw.

I should have said in practice. The agreement was there with no real intention to enforce when the rubber meets the road - onlinebiker called it. A bit like the situation, in Ukraine(who were promised protection in exchange for giving up nukes to Russia).

(22-11-2016 12:09 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
Quote: In fact the declaration of war against Germany after Poland was mere symbolism.


It could have been more. Allies were hardly unarmed. Problem was in lack of will I think.

Agreed. There was this lingering belief that Hitler could be appeased - unfortunately one way of doing that was letting him take whatever he felt like.

(22-11-2016 12:09 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
Quote: As for USSR, I suspect they "connived with Germany" in Poland to win some trust from Hitler and save themselves from becoming a target of the Germans.

Allies hardly were going to get trust from Hitler after declaring war on him.

Or if you speak about USSR then I wouldn't say that there was much trust on both side of the pact. Ideological differences and conflicting interests made that impossible for long term.

I meant something more in line with the last paragraph. I think there was little trust between them(USSR/Hitler). Stalin probably figured that appearing to connive with Germany would at least buy the USSR some time.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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