Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
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22-11-2016, 06:26 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 06:13 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Correct me if I'm wrong, Banjo. I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth......or text on your keyboard.

You are correct.

I already mentioned specific questions. None of which has been forthcoming.

I will happily discuss WWII. After all I have been reading it and speaking with veterans for 40 + years. However the lack of specifics makes this impossible.

As I have said.

To continue down the current path leads one to think this is trolling. Rightly or wrongly.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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22-11-2016, 06:50 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 06:26 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 06:13 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Correct me if I'm wrong, Banjo. I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth......or text on your keyboard.

You are correct.

I already mentioned specific questions. None of which has been forthcoming.

I will happily discuss WWII. After all I have been reading it and speaking with veterans for 40 + years. However the lack of specifics makes this impossible.

As I have said.

To continue down the current path leads one to think this is trolling. Rightly or wrongly.

I think I've mentioned this several times on this forum but my father was in Germany just before they shut down the borders to American travelers. He was helping a Jewish friend of his smuggle jewelry out of Germany for Jewish families who weren't allowed to take anything except a couple suitcases full of clothing and maybe some photos. The Germans confiscated any valuables like jewels. They'd let Americans pass through the borders without being frisked so my dad hid diamonds in his shoes and underwear, then they'd meet up with the families across the border in France and give them their jewels. This gave these families some capital to start a new life. Most of them were trying to get to America.

My dad wanted to be a journalist. He eventually ended up in London during the Blitz and was hanging out with some of the reporters who later became famous. Edward R Morrow was one of them. Anyway, my dad, who was about 20 at the time wrote articles that were sent from London to the his home town newspaper in the Bay Area near San Francisco. I have several of those articles and they're fascinating. He foresees the horror of Hitler and knew about the death camps in Germany. It was a very complicated time. A lot was going on all over the world.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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22-11-2016, 07:36 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 12:45 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 12:38 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  It's rather difficult to conquer a nation without invading it, wouldn't you think?

Again, that was referring to the logistical aspect of it hobbit.

The logistics of invading a couple of poorly equipped countries has no comparison to invading the largest nation in the world.

Factor in the fact that both Iran and Iraq were already semi-conquered by Turkey and Russia. Factor in the fact that invading Russia requires winter gear and substantially greater distances and population.

Sorry. Still no comparison.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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22-11-2016, 09:05 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 12:23 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 12:16 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I'm afraid you're misunderstanding me. I'm asking you to support your claim, not avoid the question. I'll give you credit, though, that was somewhat creative.

Anyway -- please link to a reputable source for your claim that had the French and British somehow managed to defeat Germany and still have enough remaining strength to defeat the USSR, they would have received support from an outside, unnamed nation.

I was talking about public support from their own citizen class.

Well, that is a necessary condition, but insufficient on its own. Given the very weak table of organization the Anglo-French forces would have had had going through and securing Germany, I seriously doubt the publics of the two countries, especially France, would have supported a drive 1500 miles further east of the Oder. That dog ain't huntin'.
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22-11-2016, 09:10 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 01:03 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  There's not much anyone COULD have done..... Nobody had as good as weaponry as the Germans -- and it was right in Adolph's backyard, so to speak..... Logistics simply made it impossible for the Allies to do anything...

By September 1939, the french (and later british) army had more tanks (almost twice as many as Germany) and -particularly with the french Somua- better ones! They also had a distinct advantage in numbers of planes.

As far as troops are concerned, while the "polenfeldzug" was running, Germany had 11 (eleven!) active divisions at the border to France. 25 3rd and 4th rate divisions were created hastily to have anything availiable to counter the 100 (one hundred!) french and 20 belgian divisions (BEF only started to arrive in France in September and was ready to fight in December). German high command was very concerned and well aware of the situation in the west, so that any availiable divisions were taken from Poland and transfered ASAP to the Rhine. German high command was absolutely aware that French troops just had to start and march towards Berlin, and nothing, ab-so-fucking-lutely nothing would have been able to stop them.

It wasnt German tactics, nor German numbers, nor German quality of weapons that made the french army just sit around and scratch their asses. It was the WWI trench warfare mindset and the experience of having fought that terrible war against Germany 20 years ago, that frightened the french high command to do something. The maginot line was an expression of the very defensive nature of french military strategy towards Germany, and they just couldt imagine that they would just have needed to cross the border and march through Germany, like Patton later did in 1945. Of course the constant warmongering and threatening by Adolf helped to fortify the illusion that by 1939 Germany was armed to the teeth. Same for the legend of "swarms of german tanks flooding France" in 1940. When you have a closer look, only a few meager divisions were fully motorized (140 divisions total, 10 Panzer divisions and 2-3 motorized infantry divisions, thats 10% of the german field army!). The rest of the german army had to rely on horses just like everybody else.

Not just the Maginot mindset, but also the fact that the French army suffered the same deep sociopolitical divides as did the nation at large, and as a result, morale was quite low, according to Keegan and Shirer as well.
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22-11-2016, 10:27 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
Also, OP, if you want to really understand the difficulties involved in invading Russia, read Professor John Erickson's extremely detailed two-volume set, The Road to Stalingrad/The Road to Berlin.

The first volume in particular puts the difficulties the Wehrmacht faced in the first fifteen months of Barbarossa into sharp focus: Weather, terrain, and logistics combined to slow, halt, and turn what was, man for man and tank for tank the world's best fighting force at that time.
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22-11-2016, 10:56 PM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 10:27 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Also, OP, if you want to really understand the difficulties involved in invading Russia, read Professor John Erickson's extremely detailed two-volume set, The Road to Stalingrad/The Road to Berlin.

The first volume in particular puts the difficulties the Wehrmacht faced in the first fifteen months of Barbarossa into sharp focus: Weather, terrain, and logistics combined to slow, halt, and turn what was, man for man and tank for tank the world's best fighting force at that time.

And here I thought they were going to be books. But dvds are just as good I'll give them a go! Thank you ^-^
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23-11-2016, 02:03 AM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(22-11-2016 10:56 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 10:27 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Also, OP, if you want to really understand the difficulties involved in invading Russia, read Professor John Erickson's extremely detailed two-volume set, The Road to Stalingrad/The Road to Berlin.

The first volume in particular puts the difficulties the Wehrmacht faced in the first fifteen months of Barbarossa into sharp focus: Weather, terrain, and logistics combined to slow, halt, and turn what was, man for man and tank for tank the world's best fighting force at that time.

And here I thought they were going to be books. But dvds are just as good I'll give them a go! Thank you ^-^

I read the books. Very dense.
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23-11-2016, 02:20 AM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
(23-11-2016 02:03 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 10:56 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  And here I thought they were going to be books. But dvds are just as good I'll give them a go! Thank you ^-^

I read the books. Very dense.

Ah so they are books! I was kind of confused because when I went to ebay them, all I found were dvds, however a more thorough look and I did come across one of the books. The Road to Stalingrad. I like books better, they're almost always more informative than most other alternatives.

Anyways bought the first one, if I like it I'll buy the second one too. Thanks for recommending me it!
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23-11-2016, 03:14 AM
RE: Why Didn't Britain and France declare war on the Soviet Union?
I don't know about anyone else, but I spent a lot of time unpacking what Erickson was conveying, because those two books are so full of information, from personal experience to operational art to grand strategy to weapons systems to politics. I'm a pretty fast reader, but they took me a while.

Glad you got the one, the second is equally as useful for a student of the Eastern Front.
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